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Viking

I will be stepping down from a 288 to a 210 on my next jump. Got any Advice?

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Ok heres the info. I have 34 jumps on Manta 288's. I talked with my instructors and expressed my general dislike of these tired (atleast 1000 jumps) sky trains and my desire to start my decent to the 1.1-1.0 wing loading. Since the DZ doesn't have anything between the 288 and the 210 I got there ok to jump the 210 next weekend. I know there is going to be a big diverence between the two and was wondering what to watch for. I will be jumping a PD 9cell f111 with about 200 jumps.
I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

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You will find that you will sink faster and you'll have a little more forward speed, but at this point, I don't think you're going to notice anything so drastically different that you'll react incorrectly. Just remember to check your control ranges after you open (how fast you turn and how much you sink while turning and where your flare is, since it'll feel different and be different then the old Manta you've been jumping).

Good luck and before you know it, you'll be under that VX74 you've always dreamed of... :P
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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It sucks that there is nothing for you to jump between the monster Manta and the PD210. But with 34 jumps under your belt and the blessing from your instructors, then I'm guessing that you'll be ok.

I too started off on a monster student rig (a Skymaster 290) and have since started to jump some Spectre 210s and a PD210 (both loaded at about 1:1.09), but I also had the luxury of jumping a Manta 260, a PD230 and a Navigator 220 (which flared like shit) before I tried the 210s.

As stated earlier by AggieDave, you will notice things happening faster (and you likely will need to flare slower as the smaller canopy will react much quicker to your toggle inputs). But you'll likely be fine. Just remember to PLF and have some fun. B|


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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Don't fret over it. It's not really going to be much of a difference. Open high and play with the canopy to see how it handles. PLF...PLF Don't let minor changes in equipment undermine your confidence.
You will do great!
"Slow down! You are too young
to be moving that fast!"

Old Man Crawfish

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At 1:1 you will be fine.. You will see that it is actually easier to land than the bigger canopy..

Open very high, do tons of flares and flat turns and learn the canopies low speed flight characteristics.

Just be carefull and you will be fine..

Rhino

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1)I just hopped on the scale at the DZ and i weigh 200 pounds now!!!>:( Jesus i need to loose weight.

2) I Think its like 500 feet we are pretty close to the ocean
I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

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Quote


Good luck and before you know it, you'll be under that VX74 you've always dreamed of... :P



I have NO desire what so ever for jumping somthing that small and fast. That might change as i get used to loadings over 1:1 but i dought i will ever fly anything smaller than a 120-135.
I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

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My wife broke her leg and arm under the conserative
240 Mantas. She never had a decent landing. She made a jump to a 160 with a 1.1 loading and has never had a problem. I question the actually safety factor in these large canopies. With the improvement in design and performance, I think it's time to moderate, respective of student canopy size.
Any comments from you experts?
"Slow down! You are too young
to be moving that fast!"

Old Man Crawfish

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Hey Viking although I didn't see you land when you were out at perris and can't comment on your flaring style. I think you will be ok.
specially down at Otay, thats practically sea level.
During my AFF they had me on 290's down to 260's and finally a 235. In the following 15 jumps I was on 235's 200's and 190's , and I couldn't tell the difference between any of those untill someone slipped in a ZP spectre 190 ( @1=1 on me ) and said this one is going to open much slower, you make like the flare better too.
You have got more jumps than I did and should have better conditions than I had to work with. Don't worry you can handle it.
And I could recommend going to a modern ZP fabric canopy ASAP dude, its much better all around.
Glen

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Viking:

>Since the DZ doesn't have anything between the 288 and the 210 I got there
>ok to jump the 210 next weekend. I know there is going to be a big
>difference between the two and was wondering what to watch for. I will be
>jumping a PD 9cell f111 with about 200 jumps.

...and...

>I just hopped on the scale at the DZ and i weigh 200 pounds now!!! Jesus i
>need to loose weight.

So that means you'll be loading the PD at about 1.0. That's about the maximum wingloading I'm comfortable jumping 0-3cfm(aka F111)-fabric canopies. I really have little experience on new 0-3cfm canopies, but my old Maverick and the Fury I have now really don't like to be loaded much more than 1.0... meaning that the timing of the flare needs to be pretty near perfect.

Does your DZ have any ZP student canopies(like the Navigator or the Skymaster)? These will be much better in preparing you for the ZP canopies you will be jumping in the future. I'd jump something like a Navigator240 first, and then go to the 200. Jumping a 200sqft 0-3cfm canopy does nothing to prepare you for ZP IMHO.

Kirils:

>My wife broke her leg and arm under the conserative 240 Mantas. She
>never had a decent landing. She made a jump to a 160 with a 1.1 loading
>and has never had a problem.

AFAIK Mantas are 288sqft. The same series has the Maverone(240sqft) and the Raider(220sqft). I don't believe the problems with her landings had to do as much with the size of the canopy as the condition. A thousand-jump 0-3cfm canopy has little to offer in flare power... That being said, I think a decent PLF at that wingloading should prevent broken bones.

What is the 160sqft canopy she switched to?

>I question the actually safety factor in these large canopies. With the
>improvement in design and performance, I think it's time to moderate,
>respective of student canopy size.

A lot of square footage over a students head is a good thing. For example, PD gives the maximum recommended wingloading of the Navigator200 as 0.65 for students. And this is a ZP-canopy(a hybrid actually). The performance of the canopies indeed is better than some years ago, but the students are not any better at landing them! The only thing keeping them safe for the first jumps is a large, docile canopy.

And the standard disclaimer: I have no ratings as an instructor. Talk to your instructors.

Erno

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Open high. Try all of your control inputs (four risers and two toggles). Set up high. I agree with the others about the differences you'll notice. But you will probably notice a little more drive.
Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

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For pure parachute hilarity, you should have seen me under a PD300 loading it .6 to one. Anyway, on the original question, I went from 260 to 210 in one leap. It definitely was the right decision. I think those monster canopies become more of a liability than a help pretty quickly after student status. Any sort of wind and you are in danger of backing up and the student canopies are so used that they barely flare. After 30+ jumps, you should be more than ready.

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The largest ZP offering is a Sabre 190.

Ya i am kinda worried about overloading the f111 but the mantas i jump have several THOUSAND jumps on them and i can Stand those up about 90% of the time.
I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

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1:1 is pretty much maximum wingloading for F111, but you won't really be exceeding that. I've been jumping a PD190 at 1:1, and it is the only F111 canopy I've tried that has halfway decent flares (and I've jumped every size PD from 300 to 190). It probably has to do with the fact that it isn't as tired as the larger rental canopies at my DZ. I've only got six ZP jumps so far, but they seem to make a huge difference in landing. I really wish I jumped at a dropzone that had better choices in rental equipment.

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That sounds really good, though on a certain level, I'm glad that I started with an acre of fabric over my head. Still, I wish I had transitioned to something more modern somewhat earlier in my flying career. I'm going to my home DZ tomorrow, and it will certainly be weird using the tired rental rigs. I'll probably start jumping at Perris and Elsinore instead simply for the availability of decent canopy choices. I don't know how someone is supposed to transition from old F111 rental gear to their own gear otherwise.

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I had the same problem, I learned on a 215 F-111 with a WL of maybe .5 I was 95 lbs with clothes on at the time. I couldn't stand it up for anything, the biggest problem was flaring, the toggle pressure was so high that when I flared I lifted myself in the harness. I also got really good a PLFing while going backwards. Of course those were the least of my problems, I had my rig slip off my shoulders in Freefall, once only one shoulder and the 2nd time both shoulders when I went to track for the 1st time. Needless to say I'm a HUGE advocate for at least 1 smaller rig for small jumpers with a main that will be closer to in WL as what the rest of the jumpers learn on.

I know one local DZ that it doesn't matter what size you are the 1st canopy that you jump will be a 288. For me that would have been a .4 WL I strongly believe that that WL can be just as dangerous as putting a student on to high of a WL just for different reasons. (ie. Backing up, keeping the canopy inflated, toggle pressure, lack of response to toggle input) On top of it, a 288 only goes in a very large rig cause that means it has a very large reserve....do you really think a container that large would stay on someone that small?? Let me answer that....NO. We ended up having to duct tape the rig to me in hopes of it staying on threw my student status, I was the only jump allowed to jump their own gear by jump 10 due to the student gear being more dangerous than personal gear with a much smaller 150 main (still a .8WL).
Fly it like you stole it!

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Well i jumped the 210 yesterday. First impressions are that i will be very happy at a 1:1 wingloading for a pretty good while. The main seemed very responsive compared the 288. I didn't get to accuratly test out the landing b/c i had to land out going crosswind on a dirt road with thermals kicking me around. but i think i will be fine on a 210 for a while.
I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

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You'll be fine with the 210 and will actually become a better canopy pilot since you've now shed those lousy poor flaring student canopies for good.
I believe you and I are a similar weight and have a similar number of jumps under our belts and I've been flying a 210 for the last five weeks (my wing loading is about 1.1:1 on the 210). I did have some trouble getting a PD210 F-111 to flare nicely this weekend but had no trouble getting the ZP Spectre 210 to flare. In fact I did a video jump yesterday and it was really cool to watch my standup landing. It looks easier on video than it is in real life to get the timing down. :)Now I have no idea how the swoopers land. :S


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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i am not sure what kinda main i wanna get. More than likly a Hornet. but first i have to find a job or win the lottery.
I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

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