cobaltdan 0 #26 September 10, 2002 the difference you discussed could be due to the number of jumps on the canopy. cobalts are 'broken in' over the first 40-100 jumps, this is where the spectra lines change dimensions and go into >better< trim. so if you jump a canopy with a few hundred jumps vs a brand new one you will notice a suptle diference and probably prefer the older one. i can tell you the difference is definately not due to 'hand construction' and not using a laser cutter. i will put money on the fact that we hold the highest tollerences in the industry. (btw we purchased a laser cutter beginning of this season, pd is the only other parachute co. we know of that owns a laser cutter. precision, icarus, aerodyne, strong, simula, bigair, paraflite, pioneer, etc all use hot knife.) as far as the h-mod at 1.6 i think it will be noticable enough to justify the cost. best bet is to speak with howard and ask for names of some people jumping his mod at that wing loading. querry them and then make a decision. sincerely, dan<><>Daniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #27 September 10, 2002 Just an aside... Most BigAir's canopies are made on the same production lines as PD's and PD has the templetes for Brians canopies on their laser cutter.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #28 September 10, 2002 BigAirSportz canopies are laser cut. A Big Air dealer told me Brian owns a table he keeps at PD's factory. Demand for the Samurai reached a point last year for Brian to work a deal w/ PD to build the Samurai. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #29 September 10, 2002 brians table is a hotknife not laser built by white automation, marketed by gyro (paul martin of icarus) in nz. sincerely, dan <><>Daniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sroberts 0 #30 September 10, 2002 If you have to ask you answered your own question...don't downsize. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maretus 0 #31 September 11, 2002 Dan wrote : "i will put money on the fact that we hold the highest tollerences in the industry. (btw we purchased a laser cutter beginning of this season, pd is the only other parachute co. we know of that owns a laser cutter. precision, icarus, aerodyne, strong, simula, bigair, paraflite, pioneer, etc all use hot knife.) " --------------------------- Don't know about your cutting tolerances but icarus says in their website : "At Icarus, we computer cut 100% of our canopies with a CAD/CAM (computer aided design/computer aided manufacture) system." and "The computer cutter - marks, labels, then cuts and seals each panel at a tolerance of +/-0.2mm, as well as calculating and generating line lengths." (http://www.icaruscanopies.com/techno.htm) That souds pretty good tolerance to me.http://www.ufufreefly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #32 September 11, 2002 I believe Dan was probably talking about sewing tollerances. The most perfectly cut pieces of fabric in the world will not do you a bit of good if you have seams that are a half inch off in some places and right on the edge of the fabric in others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #33 September 11, 2002 icarus uses a stepper motor driven hot-knife plotter. we use a co2 laser plotter to cut templates and then trace a hot knife around by hand. tollerence of both methods is equal. but as chuck pointed out finished tollerence is all that counts and i believe most jumpers would be blown away (or scared) at just how very difficult it is to maintain high tollerences through the sewing process. yes match marks must be sewn accurately, but sewing tension accounts for a greater induced error. also remember with each rib sewn, errors become cumulative spanwise. forget about milimeters or fraction of a milimeters, most parachute companies have dificulty keeping a spanwise nose tape or tail tape tollerence within several centimeters !!! the use of a cnc plotter: laser or hot knife type by any parachute company was never to increase tollerence. they do reduce labor when cutting fabric but not enough to justify their cost. i.e. on an elliptical 150 it takes approximately 25 hours to construct, only 4 of those hours are hand template cutting. the reason for their use is to elliminate the time spent manufacturing templates. i.e. the templates for our onyx took me a little over 100 hours to complete. now multiply that by 9 sizes to scale it into and you can see how severly time consuming it is for a company to generate a new canopy design without a cnc plotter. sincerely, dan<><>Daniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #34 September 11, 2002 I was told PISA uses a Laser cutter.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #35 September 16, 2002 Speaking of the Onyx Is it going to be a direct compeptitor to the VX/FX and Volocity? What sizes are you planning on making them in? Also what are the longest swoops you have recorded on it? Also the photographer in me wants to know if you have any pictures that aren't on the website. I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #36 September 16, 2002 yes the onyx will fall into the class of the velocity/vx... i am not ready to release it as we have been putting all our effort into our military projects this year. on the competition cobalt (non cord x-braced, 9 cell) competition swoops average 280' - 340'. the airfoil on the onyx is higher lift than the vx and velocity, which means it is slightly slower at equal loadings. i have resisted the urge to design the onyx with a faster airfoil as i think it will just increase the possibility of injury. i.e. the velocity: it is a great design competition canopy, but extremely fast and unforgiving resulting in more deaths than i care to count. sincerely, dan<><>Daniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #37 September 16, 2002 what size is that onyx on your website? Cool color design by the way.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #38 September 16, 2002 it is a 95. all our prototypes are built first as a 95. in this way we can compare apples to apples (at least with regards to area and wingloading). sincerely, dan <><>Daniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #39 September 16, 2002 do you know if PD or icarus is planning a counter to the Onyx.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rcjump 0 #40 September 17, 2002 The cobalt Is The softest,smothest,strongest canopy made i jumped icrus,pd,ar,pr, and cobalt smokes them all as for wing load i went from169safire to 120 cobalt it was easier to land even in deep brakes lets see the rest land in deep brakes and not shatter your pelvis on my 120 im at 1.8 wing load its that good demo 120 after you got 500js on your 135 and get comfortable with it before you doun size that way you will have more fun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #41 September 18, 2002 Have you jumped the Onyx yet?? If so what do you think? Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #42 September 19, 2002 Anyone? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
rhino 0 #41 September 18, 2002 Have you jumped the Onyx yet?? If so what do you think? Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
