hop n pops/sib terminal openings

[thegman 0]

I've got alost 100 jumps but only a few hop npops.I was thinking about doing some more hop n pops to become more failiar w/ my canopy,work on my accuracy ect.I am used to being in the saddle around 3k normally.On my last ne I exited about 4k I probably rushed my deployment a little(about a 3 second delay outthe door) My canopy sniveled qutie a bit.The opening pulled me vertical
I looked up and saw my bag for a brief moment and thought s#**.I almost cut it away because it looked for a second like a baglock.I gave it a second. and whoosh no problem(after talking to a few people I realized this was most likely the result of a subterminal opening.)In retrospect I feel I may have rushed the deployment a bit which I know can be a bad thing if you're not stable.However I also don't want to be waiting to long to get stable and be in the saddle right at my decision altitude.180 ft. Any thoughts,advice, or words of wisdom?

http://www.freefallmaniacs.net

[PhreeZone 15]

If you want the low, solo exit with out the subterminal opening... just ask the pilot not to cut the engine on the jump run. It will have more horizontal speed for you to use in the opening.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[hookit 0]

Quote

However I also don't want to be waiting to long to get stable and be in the saddle right at my decision altitude.180 ft.

180 feet is a tad low to be making decisions!

Seriously though you'll more than likely learn to love soft subterminal openings as you do more hop-n-pops. They just take some getting used to.

You're right in that being stable is the key. There's no need to feel rushed because you actually have plenty of time (relatively speaking) to pull. Your first thousand feet of freefall will take ten seconds because you'll be accelerating towards the ground. Ten seconds is an eternity in freefall.

Blues,
Trey

[thegman 0]

that was a typo I meat 1800ft.Anyway is there a rule of thumb as to the # of seconds you should wait til you deploy.

http://www.freefallmaniacs.net

[rhino 0]

No rule of thumb.. I have over 100 hop-n-pops from over 13,000 feet. I allways open the second I hit the prop blast. Opening on the hill will pull you vertical. I had one subterminal opening look like a bag lock for a second also, then chink, chink, chink the bag finished opening. I had all the lines stowed with double wraps on new rubber bands. But it was fun
Rhino

[beau31duke 0]

I had been having some hard openings and someone told me to double stow my lines. I didn't think about the fact my next jump would be a hop 'n pop at a demo the next weekend. The plan was to do crw so we were at 5500ft. I threw out right of the step of our Porter. Nothing, i waited, waited and after about 5 secs looked up and saw line twist with the bag spinning. I knew i was about 5500 when we jumped out and I had plenty of time so i simply reached up and shook my lines a few times and wham. It opened with lots of line twist. Just make sure you know your altitude and stay calm.

Beau

[thegman 0]

I asume opening on the hill means (while still in the prop blast)Question.Which directon are you exiting.Facing the prop,the tail, diving strait out or what.In other words des it matter how you exit if you pull while your in the prop blast.Sometimes I exit facing the prop.I dont think a rght hand pitch toward the plane would be a good idea.

http://www.freefallmaniacs.net

[rhino 0]

I jump out presenting myself to the prop. I get stable instantly and deploy.

[AggieDave 6]

Generally speaking, in my experience and in discussion with some of the much more experienced canopy pilots at the DZ, a 3 second delay (or more) helps out a whole lot with hop-n-pops. That will help give you the speed you need to give your bag the appropiate snatch force to help keep everything going well. I've seen some fairly wicked line twists induced from the lines on the bag unstowing at a slower speed.

How do I face? Depends on my mood, etc. If I want to get out there and deploy NOW, I exit into the relative wind, otherwise I'll do a flip off the step, hang off the strut/door, give the pilot the bird, any number of things.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skycat 0]

I usually give it a 6 second delay so my pro-track can log it. Anything less and it doesn't know I jumped.

Fly it like you stole it!

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

I asume opening on the hill means (while still in the prop blast)

Not quite. You want to fall at least a bit away from the plane before you deploy so you won't entangle with the tail.

Being in the "prob blast" implies that you're directly behind the prop, which would be a BAD place to pull.

Pulling "on the hill" does mean that you pull after jumping, but while the wind is predominantly still in the horizontal direction, from the speed of the plane.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[thegman 0]

Thanks for the clarification.That makes sense.I realy didn't think pulling in the prop blast sounded like a good idea.

http://www.freefallmaniacs.net

[rhino 0]

Pulling THE MOMENT you hit the relative wind poses NO DANGER what so ever..

Watch crew dawgs, the dump the moment they get out.. Maybe a 1 second delay..

Rhino

[AggieDave 6]

BUT the CReW guys aren't jumping fully ellipticals at a high wing loading, or even a moderate wing loading, right? That is when you start getting incredibly odd openings; furthermore, they pack their canopies to open fast at subterminal. If you're packing specifically for that purpose (how you do the stows, how you pack/roll/etc), then you're not going to have a problem.

Rhino, go do 5 or 6 hop-n-pops pulling at sub terminal or like a CReW dog. I bet you'll have to fly your ass off in the harness to keep your canopy from spinning up/opening weird.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Kris 0]

Quote

BUT the CReW guys aren't jumping fully ellipticals at a high wing loading

Down, Dave! I think Rhino was just talking about the possible interference with the tail of the airplane.

As for the elliptical in the prop-blast, I have done pulls right out the door of a 182, a Caravan and an Otter. The prop blast from a turbine will definitely send you on a wild ride but if you pull stable you can fly the opening. But, you will be flying the opening like a mad-man for a couple of seconds.
Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[rhino 0]

Everyone knows what I am jumping and at what loading.. I have yet to have any type of weird or abnormal opening.

I've done over 75 hop-n-pops from altitude "on my crossfire2, 97 at 1.85+" I have yet to have any type of weird or spinning opening. And I ALLWAYS fly my ass off. Someone that doesn't fly his or her ass off in the first place has no business on a high wing loading "figuratively speaking". Besides? Have you ever jumped a highly loaded elliptical canopy? If not how do you know what you are talking about?

And yes, I was in fact mentioning that your parachute hitting the tail would not be an issue..

Rhino

[PhreeZone 15]

In CRW, you really should not release the PC untill you can see the entire underside of the airplane. And yes... I've jumped highly loaded canopies that I've tossed at various delays. on a hop and pop with a 1 second delay and no cut in the engine... lets just say I should have taken a 3 or 4 second delys in order not to fly my ass off during opening.

Forward speed has a lot to due with the openings on some canopies at a 1 second delay. A 182 with a cut... no issues there. A 206 with no cut... a bit harder. A tailgate with no cut... you'll be flying your ass op to avoid spinning up.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AggieDave 6]

I've been jumping fully ellips loaded at 1.64 for a while now. I always fly through my openings, but sub terminal openings are always weird. If I know I'm going to be doing a hop-n-pop, I pack for it, so my openings will be better.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

I've been jumping fully ellips loaded at 1.64 for a while now. I always fly through my openings, but sub terminal openings are always weird

I frequently do hop & pops on my stiletto. I hearing the ruffle of the fabric, for some reason that just seems too cool.

I don't have very unpredictable openings. While they do take a longer amount of time then usual, they tend to use up about the same, if not less altitude then a terminal opening.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[skycat 0]

part of the reason they could feel off is cause you are up higher than your normal opening altitude, especially if you are dumping at altitude. Due to the thinner air, your canopy will seem to search more cause it really is looking for more air. It can also open a bit hard (at terminal) when you are dumping at a higher altitude.

Fly it like you stole it!

[VivaHeadDown 0]

The canopy is a large surface area at first before it fills up. The slider is a small surface area that in thinner air just doesn't work as effectively since it was designed for higher density air. That's the cause for the hard openings. Took me a while to figure out since you'd think thinner air would have a slower opening generally. But when you think about it, it's the slider that controls span-wise expansion, so it must be the variable factor here.

[billvon 2,740]

Some info about hop and pops:

First off, even if you dump in the prop blast it won't have too much effect on your canopy opening. You are out of the prop blast in about half a second, so your canopy doesn't open in it no matter what you do (unless you do pilot chute assist or something.)

In addition, the extra time isn't too big a deal. Remember, even if you have a 100% bag lock for ten full seconds, you've only covered 1000 feet - you will still be at 2000 feet before you have to initiate emergency procedures.

If you open right away, how fast you open will depend on your altitude and your equipment. A medium sized kill line PC on a small canopy with sorta loose stows should open quickly. If you have a small PC, tight stows and a larger canopy, it will probably take longer. Remember that if you're going half the speed when you deploy you only have ONE EIGHTH the drag on the PC; drag increases per the cube of speed.

Altitude also matters. Canopies open more quickly at higher altitudes, given the same airspeed.

Remember the difference between airspeed and groundspeed. Your canopy/PC system cares primarily about airspeed during the first stages of deployment, which you can see on the aircraft's airspeed indicator.

If you take a delay you will increase your opening speed. Does that compensate for the increased time you need? Depends. Waiting five seconds will get you to nearly freefall speeds, but that's a long time to wait. If you deploy right away you may not have very high airspeed, but you will keep accelerating anyway even if your PC is out, so you will get the extra speed.

Avoid bungee collapsibles for hop and pops.

[skycat 0]

Actually I moved from Houston to CO so here was my experience on openings in thinner air.

In Houston - nice snivel, very little searching, soft opening.

In Denver - very long snivel, LOTS of searching, 2nd stage of the opening is harder.

Basically it takes longer for the canopy to catch the air to open, but once it does it opens much faster.

Fly it like you stole it!

[trigger 0]

Hi,you mention and i quote:i want to get more familiar with my canopy.Now i'm not for one micro instant saying theres anything wrong with doing hop n pops theres not,but equally you could always deploy high say 5000ft and enjoy abit of freefall to boot.Discuss this with the jumpmaster on the load i'm sure there won't be a problem.i.e deploying higher affords a longer canopy fight and more time to familiarise yourself with the canopyJUST ANOTHER PLAN B

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.