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rainman

Flat turn - AGAIN

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Hello all,
I know this topic's been discussed numerous times before, and I have read these discussions, but I'm still not clear on the flat turn concept.
Here's what my understanding of a flat turn is:
- Fly in quarter to half brakes
- let up one brake to initiate a turn
- let up the other brake to stop the turn
- if done correctly, you will have lost little height
- if done correctly, you will have built some speed so that the canopy will not dive as a result of returning to full flight.
Is this correct? Also, if you need to do this in an emergency situation, do you go to quarter or half brakes before letting up one of the brakes?
Any and all input appreciated!
Blue skies,
:)Ramon :)

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For shuffle turns (flat low turns), as described above, I like to be in half brakes, then use a combination of harness weight shift, and one toggle slightly up, one slightly down to slowly flat turn. And be ready for cross winder / "hail mary" (knees bent, ankles together, arms tucked in) PLF etc, rather than turn too low to recover, which hurts, cos I did that once.....Still got the titanium in me to prove it.
My canopy (spectre @ 1.6+)seems to turn flatter the less radical the input I employ......Go figure eh?
Of course, I don't swoop, or go for riser'd approaches at all.....Some others may find different techniques work for them....
Cya
D
Gravity Rat # 37
Remember, we can do everything right, and still get hurt.

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I was just wondering what it would be like to take a low flat turn all the way into the ground. So far I've been lucky and careful enough not to do this. I assume your landing would be hard, but I'm just wondering how hard. Would it be better than a down wind landing. I've only got about 120 square jumps. So I'm still pretty stupid when it comes to flying a modern day canopy. I have had a couple of long spots where it was kind of nip and tuck to get turned around into the wind in time. Steve

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That largely depends on how strong of a down wind you take....On a flat turn you are going to rob yourself of some flare because you are already in brakes. In the down wind landing just hope you can either run, skid, slidem, PLF and tuck and roll...or a combination of all. One crazy SOB at our DZ intentionally takes downwinders (at close to 15mph by my guess) and slides them out like a madman....he looks like he is in full control and having a ball.
JJ

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Well, that's not exactly how I define them. A flat turn is an emergency manuever that lets you go from full flight in one direction to full flight in another direction with minimum loss of altitude and minimum change in airspeed. They can be used when someone suddenly cuts you off or you have to abort your landing at 100 feet (say, you just realized you were about to land in a minefield.)
Start in full flight. Initiate the turn with one brake. _Immediately_ follow with the other one to "flatten" the turn. Continue until you are pointed the direction you want to be pointed in, bringing both brakes gradually further down. As soon as you're on heading, let the brakes back up.
If your canopy dives to recover its airspeed after you have completed the turn, you used too much opposite toggle. If your canopy is in a dive when you come out of the turn (i.e. you get a normal diving turn) you used too little opposite toggle. A perfect flat turn lets you come out of the turn at normal flying speed, allowing an immediate flare if needed.
-bill von

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To come out of a flat turn at normal speed you have to start with more than normal speed. A flat turn is initiated with toggles or rear risers and induces more than normal drag, which decreases your airspeed. Expect to dive a little, or a lot depending on your loading, unless you initiate a flat turn with some extra speed. Even in a flat turn, remember, you are trading speed for lift. Hence, flat.

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>To come out of a flat turn at normal speed you have to start with more than
> normal speed.
No, you really don't. It takes practice, but you can enter at full flight and exit at full flight. It is worthwhile to learn how to do this, since if you ever do find yourself at 100 feet needing to turn 90 degrees, you will not have the luxury of 'adding some speed' before beginning the turn.
>A flat turn is initiated with toggles or rear risers and induces more than normal
> drag, which decreases your airspeed.
Countering that is the tendency for a turned canopy to speed up, which is essentially how a toggle hook is initiated. You need to balance these two tendencies to achieve the flattest possible turn, one where you exit the turn with normal flying speed.
-bill von

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Thanks Bill, this is the answer I was hoping to get!
Many people have been telling me that flat turns are a very important skill, but I had trouble grasping the idea. Now that the theory is clear to me I can start practicing this for real :)Thanks again,
:)Ramon :)

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Quote

I was just wondering what it would be like to take a low flat turn all the way into the ground. So far I've been lucky and careful enough not to do this. I assume your landing would be hard, but I'm just wondering how hard. Would it be better than a down wind landing.


Good question.
I would say that, unless you are VERY proficient at flat turns, you would be better off with a downwind or crosswind landing than you would be with landing during a flat turn.
This probably also depends on the canopy and wing-loading you're flying. A larger, more forgiving canopy will be easier to land without injury during a flat turn than a pocket rocket will be. However, keep in mind that many more people are injured by landing during a turn than they are by landing downwind.
Blue Skies & Safe Landings,
Trey

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>So are flat turns and braked turns two separate things? When are each
> applicable?
A flat turn is a type of braked turn; it's the flattest and slowest you can turn in brakes. Braked turn is a sort of a generic term referring to any turn where you use both toggles.
-bill von

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>I was just wondering what it would be like to take a low flat turn all the way
>into the ground. . . . Would it be better than a down wind landing.
This is an important question because it is exactly where you need a flat turn. Let's say you're on final, but are covering ground very quickly. At 100 feet you realize that you made a mistake and are flying downwind, and are going to overshoot the landing area and hit the fence. The worst thing you can do is bury a toggle; that will either injure you or kill you depending on your canopy. The next-worst thing is to fly into the fence; going downwind you'll be going pretty fast.
A good solution would be to flat turn away from the fence. From 100 feet you should be able to turn at least 90 degrees in the flat turn. When you let the brakes up at the end of the turn, you will be at normal flying speed (if done correctly) so you can immediately flare. This is a pretty good option - now you're landing crosswind and you're not going to hit that fence, which is a much better position to be in.
If, once you start that flare, you can also turn into the wind _during_ the flare, you're in very good shape. You can turn a potentially deadly situation into a standup landing. However, it's hard to do this well, and needs to be practiced a _lot_ before you can safely turn close to 180 degrees at low altitudes.
To answer your original question, I wouldn't actually _land_ in the flat turn, since you'll still be descending. However, you can come out of the turn literally at 15 feet and flare immediately, and if in fact you keep the brakes down, level the canopy, and bring them the rest of the way down you've just effectively done a flare.
-bill von

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Don't get too caught up in the terminology of flat turn, flared/flaring turn, braked turn, etc.. Different people will give you varying definitions anyway, including me. Experiment with the various options and find out how your canopy responds under different conditions. That is one of the joys of being a canopy pilot, using each jump as a new and unique learning experience. Too many of us are content to just learn enough to survive under normal circumstances and then just do the same thing over and over. What fun it is to have a plan for each jump, one that allows us to learn and develop while exploring the parameters of our canopy's performance. And then do that with each successive canopy!
Flat turn: Short, slow, smooth, steady input of either toggle followed by similar input of the opposite toggle to maintain airspeed with minimal loss of altitude. A coordinated return to neutral will result in a canopy at full flight with little or no loss of altitude. One possible use would be when you miss judged your altitude on a smooth day and don't have the altitude for a "normal" turn onto final.
Flaring/flared turn: Short, slow, smooth, steady and even input of of both toggles at the same time, continueing into an increased input of either side that results in a shallow turn during the flare. Additional but proportionally less input of the opposite toggle can be used to maintain or gain altitude during the turn and airspeed will be lost. Bringing both toggles to the flared position will stop the turn and finish the flare. One possible use woud be avoiding another jumper on the ground who has walked into your flight path during the flare/surf part of your landing, or perhaps you are doing a crosswind landing.
Braked turn: Similar to flaring turn, but from the braked position one toggle is depressed while the opposite toggle input is reduced. Unlike the flat turn, this turn should result in an increase of airspeed during the turn, with the pilot adjusting the rate of descent/altitude loss. One possible use woud be when you have missed judged your altitude on a somewhat turbulent day and can't do a "normal" turn onto final but want a little extra speed for canopy pressurization.
There are numerous scenarios where each technique could have an application or even where you may want to transition from one into another. An example might be where you have decided a flat turn would provide a safer landing but during the execution, you realize that you have conserved enough altitude that you may over shoot your intended landing area, so you transition into a braked turn. As you can see, the possibilties are too numerous to cover in a few paragraphs. As you experiment and gain experience you will find many, many applications that will suit your flying style, skills and abilities.
alan

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Bill, that's a brilliant explanation... I had no concept of a flat turn until I read that. When I asked as a student, I was just told that you could flatten out a turn by pulling both toggles down and pulling one more than the other. I knew one was supposed to practice this, so I tried a couple, but failed to really see the purpose in practicing it--well yeah, you just flare, and turn, but at the same time. Big deal, right? But now, I'm going to go practice holding a constant airspeed in a toggle turn. Awesome...
Marc

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When I try this up high, I always get the feeling of a surge forward after I raise both toggles, accompanied by the feeling of being "behind" the canopy (lighter in the harness). I am not eager to practice this low to the ground to confirm this feeling. Am I just doing it wrong?

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