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spacetrance

Should I worry about this...

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cruelpops

I will try to offer up some thoughtful insight as to why people think you're a troll...

I jump at Spaceland Dallas and in my opinion your logic to attempt AFF at another DZ because your tandem jump at Spaceland was "not personable" is flawed and somewhat ridiculous.

When you state an allegation of "I suspect illegal drug usage with the rigger."; it is a very inflammatory remark and you then follow your previous statement with, "I also understand that is just a suspicion and I don't perceive it as a fact." This is a public forum and when you make those allegations, you are treading on thin ice both from a standard of being accepted (by the members of this forum) and a standard by which someone can sue your ass for defamation. So your comments are either extremely ignorant or you're an attorney trying to pull some bullshit bait-and-switch routine.

You didn't necessarily qualify your statement about the packers and riggers as to whether you were a part of the audience receiving instruction or were merely a passerby. So let's assume you were simply leaning in and listening because you were curious. First, at this juncture in your training you don't know enough to know Jack Shit. As such, anything you heard or may have heard or observed or thought you observed isn't your business until an instructor has provided you with the proper foundation to move on to that next level and says, "Listen to him or her, you need to know this." I wouldn't worry about a packer and a rigger until you get to that point in your training... if you make it.

Please, take no offense as I am a skydiver and I am an asshole.



No reason to get all bent out of shape... It was just an observation and a question. I by no means was questioning him/her as a person... It took me a two year prison trip to get off the sauce and get my head right.

Maybe "not personable" wasn't the best wording. Maybe more like intimidating. Being a first time jumper around so much activity especially when "I don't know s?@t". My personal takeaway was nothing negative towards spaceland Dallas... As a matter of fact once I get my A license (if I survive the grilling from drop zone.com) I plan on doing my jumping from there.

Maybe in all honesty my post is rooted in being new and nervous and hyper cautious...

Please take no offense as I'm a wannabe skydiver and I'm not an asshole... But a tad sarcastic!
------------------------------------
Scientist and Physicist still do not understand gravity... Jumping out of an airplane is my attempt to help them in their quest to explain gravity.

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raftman

You'll never get anywhere with that attitude.
All the best skydivers I know are assholes!



I'll have to try harder B|
------------------------------------
Scientist and Physicist still do not understand gravity... Jumping out of an airplane is my attempt to help them in their quest to explain gravity.

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Hi Spacetrance, I'm also new to the sport (read: take everything in this post with a huge grain of salt), I'm currently in the middle of AFF. Under the assumption that you're not a troll lawyer digging for dirt-

Here are a few things to consider:

The student fatality rate is much lower than the 1:100,000 statistic you just quoted. That's the fatality rate for all skydives combined, including risky advanced activities such as wingsuit BASE. The canopies we are given as students are very docile and conservative. Even a moron like me can land one safely. The odds of there being a serious (non line-twist) malfunction with your main are very low, and the odds that something bad happens to the reserve are essentially non-existent. The reserve takes 3 hours to pack, and is usually overseen by multiple people at least one of whom is an expert rigger.

Two, skydiving is a strongly self-policing community. The rigger that packs your rig is packing a lot of people's rig. Everyone values their life. Therefore, you can trust to a high degree that the rigger at the DZ is generally trusted. He will not be drinking or using drugs while working at the DZ- I imagine that the vast majority of DZOs would not tolerate that.

The understanding that I've developed from my brief time in the sport is that it's generally safe enough that the main thing that kills people is COMPLACENCY and OVERCONFIDENCE. So, you are safety conscious- stay that way, no matter how comfortable you start to feel in the sky.

Good luck with your first jump!

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Hey guys I appreciate the info. I really need to take a look at any exclusions in my long-term disability policy... and I don't have health insurance... sounds like now is the time.

I did practice PLFing in the living room the other day. Falling without sticking my arms out was strange at first but confidence in what Ive been learning helped. My son is 6 and jumps off everything so I should probably PLF off the couch with him. Actually he broke his arm standing on the dinning room chair, so maybe I'll try that afterhours :)
The whole troll thing... I get it now, im not one so if ppl think that I am that is on them not me. No biggie... In hindsight my original question does seem out of place but my safety in my responsibility in the end... therefore I don't mind asking the hard questions.

The sun just came out for the first time in days... I'm calling and scheduling my next jump! I'm a independent contractor and in a way I wish I didn't have work tomorrow... But I have lots of mouths to feed so it is all good!

------------------------------------
Scientist and Physicist still do not understand gravity... Jumping out of an airplane is my attempt to help them in their quest to explain gravity.

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Yes, you need health insurance. Preferably before your next jump. If you die, your family gets social security. If you're seriously injured, they get the bills.

As far as whether to be worried, probably not. This sport tends to attract some less socially skilled people. Nowadays most dzo's are scared of being sued, so truly sketchy stuff isnt likely to be institutionalized. And while I haven't jumped in Dallas since Soaceland took over, the Houston operation does a really good job of bringing students into the skydiving world, with load organizing, newbie boogies, and the like. I'll her Dallas does the same.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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spacetrance

I suspect illegal drug usage with the rigger....
The young guy packing was teaching some other young guy to pack... which to me seems a far stretch from 'under the direct supervision of a FAA licensed rigger'.


If you can tell, then you can tell. The question for yourself is can you tell. Packing is a PITA to learn but not rocket science and you should complete the quote regarding direct supervision. As it is, there isn't a violation. There is rarely more than 1 rigger at a dropzone and you won't find any supervising pack jobs all day.

spacetrance

Lastly, the dropzone isn't a USPA dropzone.


Sounds like the USPA troll Ed Scott has done his job well. All that means is that this particular place didn't pay a racketeering charge to the USPA. They could've paid the fee and called themselves a "USPA dropzone". The sole benefit would be that you can't say "isn't a USPA dropzone". So think from the owner's perspective if that's worth it. It is to some, not to others.

spacetrance

Some of my thoughts... Ask the packer if he has read the sigma manual. Ask if they do drug tests.


The rigger passed requirements tests to become a rigger; he did a lot more than read the manual. I doubt any place does drug tests. For drug tests, you'd likely have to train in a military freefall course.

Ask the jumpers who rent gear how their openings are. Ask how many cutaways they've had with rental gear recently. You may not understand much of the responses but the gist you're looking for is whether they're happy with the pack jobs.

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DHemer


Parachutes can malfunction and skydiving is not a safe sport. There is a reason for all the paperwork, people die doing this and you need to accept that.



On a side note, I think the warnings get too overboard. It comes off as chest beating. According to gov't stats, skydiving is safer than football, canoeing, hiking, and other more common activities, none of which come with such dire warnings.

http://www.besthealthdegrees.com/health-risks/

Advanced stuff like base (1 in 60), swooping, sure, warn of imminent danger. But tandem and vanilla fun jumping are slightly safer than going to a dance party. The warnings should correspond accordingly.

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jrodrod

***
Parachutes can malfunction and skydiving is not a safe sport. There is a reason for all the paperwork, people die doing this and you need to accept that.



On a side note, I think the warnings get too overboard. It comes off as chest beating. According to gov't stats, skydiving is safer than football, canoeing, hiking, and other more common activities, none of which come with such dire warnings.

http://www.besthealthdegrees.com/health-risks/

Advanced stuff like base (1 in 60), swooping, sure, warn of imminent danger. But tandem and vanilla fun jumping are slightly safer than going to a dance party. The warnings should correspond accordingly.

You got it... It's a really really safe sport, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

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Dude, you really do not the experience to tell people anything.

Quote

There is rarely more than 1 rigger at a dropzone and you won't find any supervising pack jobs all day.



Most dropzones have more than one rigger around. I'm not sure I've ever been to a dropzone where only one person was a rigger. Your experience is clearly lacking.

Quote

Sounds like the USPA troll Ed Scott has done his job well. All that means is that this particular place didn't pay a racketeering charge to the USPA. They could've paid the fee and called themselves a "USPA dropzone". The sole benefit would be that you can't say "isn't a USPA dropzone". So think from the owner's perspective if that's worth it. It is to some, not to others.



I love how you've jumped on the USPA hater bandwagon so early in your career. So edgy.

Quote

The rigger passed requirements tests to become a rigger; he did a lot more than read the manual. I doubt any place does drug tests. For drug tests, you'd likely have to train in a military freefall course.



Fucking seriously? Get out there some more and come back when you have a clue. Many dropzones drug test their employees nowadays. All of the big ones do and it's happening at the small and mid-sized ones, too.

- Dan G

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Hey old fart, early is relative. If you want to throw your age rather than experience around, go back to your assisted living quarters.

See why your USPA bandwagon attempt is so pathetic? No facts to dispute facts.

I have enough experience to have jumped in over 5 countries so I call bs on your post. I've been to many dz's with 0 full time riggers. Get some refills on your meds.

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Hey old fart, early is relative. If you want to throw your age rather than experience around, go back to your assisted living quarters.



Young in the sport, hero. It's obvious you're young in age, too, because you act like a little child.

Quote

See why your USPA bandwagon attempt is so pathetic? No facts to dispute facts.



There are plenty of facts, but with people like you it's like banging your head on a wall. Why bother?

Quote

I have enough experience to have jumped in over 5 countries so I call bs on your post. I've been to many dz's with 0 full time riggers. Get some refills on your meds.



Wow. Over five countries! Why not just say six? Doesn't sound as good or something? You never said full time riggers before. You said riggers. Don't try to change the goalposts now, stud.

- Dan G

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jrodrod

"sport" is debatable. The release forms and mfg labels call it an activity.


Hah, we had a discussion a while back about what is the difference between a hobby and a sport. We settled on "if you can die while doing it, it's a sport. If you can't, it's a hobby". Loose standard, since stupid people die doing pretty much anything, but it was good enough for a saturday at 5 beers in the evening.

Although I've never heard of anyone dying while collecting postage stamps...:P

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Hey old fart, what good is a qualified rigger if he's in the air during the day? But plenty of places have no qualified riggers either during the day. In other words, you're full of shit.

Over 5 because it's an easier concept for the brain dead like yourself than an exact number that you may or may not still be able to count o. So yes, for you, it sounds better.

Why bother with facts? Enuff said, doesn't matter for Alzheimer's patients like yourself. If you're just going to trash talk, at least make it halfway amusing.

IJskonijn

"if you can die while doing it, it's a sport. If you can't, it's a hobby".


lol yea it's a funny discussion that I just sit back and enjoy with popcorn. Especially during Olympic years like now, and later on with curling. I think there was an effort to get chess into the Olympics. They failed but there is a Chess Olympiad.

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Grow up.

I know you think you're winning the internet, but you're just making yourself out to be a dick, and an annoying dick at that.

I'd start down the path of what the duties of a supervising rigger are, but the discussion would be wasted on you. You already know everything.

- Dan G

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jrodrod

***
Parachutes can malfunction and skydiving is not a safe sport. There is a reason for all the paperwork, people die doing this and you need to accept that.



On a side note, I think the warnings get too overboard. It comes off as chest beating. According to gov't stats, skydiving is safer than football, canoeing, hiking, and other more common activities, none of which come with such dire warnings.

http://www.besthealthdegrees.com/health-risks/

Advanced stuff like base (1 in 60), swooping, sure, warn of imminent danger. But tandem and vanilla fun jumping are slightly safer than going to a dance party. The warnings should correspond accordingly.

Your stats are not from the government, why would the US Governmant keep stats about climbing deaths in Nepal?

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Noobs are always talking about skydiving is so safe. Eventually most people change their tune after they know a few people who have gone in or become paralyzed or brain damaged.

Some never change their tune because they are stupid.

- Dan G

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I have no dog in the fight just want to clear some inaccuracies. I have jumped in 3 countries at small and and large DZ's and jump at 3 big SO Cal DZ's regulary(even worked at one for 6 years) and all of them have more than 1 rigger working, and yes they do drug test, surprise random type ones, even for the packers on the mat.

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DanG

Noobs are always talking about skydiving is so safe. Eventually most people change their tune after they know a few people who have gone in or become paralyzed or brain damaged.

Some never change their tune because they are stupid.

I think it's often just wishful thinking on their part. . .
Or that they just don't know what they just don't know.

I started in the 70's, when it was still considered dangerous. Seemed to make you keep a sense of focus, for sure.

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jrodrod

***
Parachutes can malfunction and skydiving is not a safe sport. There is a reason for all the paperwork, people die doing this and you need to accept that.



On a side note, I think the warnings get too overboard.

Well at least more experienced jumpers agree with me. The amount of people I know hospitalized due to skydiving is more than any other sport I have participated in. Unfortunately for some it was worse...

To get things back on topic: Is the rigger requirement only for Tandem systems in the USA or something specified by the manufacturer for general use. Our DZO is a rigger but he sure as hell doesn't watch the packers at work.
Is this requirment common between all tandem systems?

In SA if you have passed a packing test at your DZ you are good to go with packing student and sport gear (not tandems, not sure what they do)

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jclalor


Your stats are not from the government, why would the US Governmant keep stats about climbing deaths in Nepal?



Why don't you go ask the CDC (which is gov't) and then get back to me. They may or may not keep stats but they do report them. There is a difference. In any case, do you have a point? If you have stats that contradict the gov't stats, go ahead and post them.

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DanG

Noobs are always talking about skydiving is so safe. Eventually most people change their tune after they know a few people who have gone in or become paralyzed or brain damaged.

Some never change their tune because they are stupid.



DanG

Noobs are always talking about skydiving is so safe. Eventually most people change their tune after they know a few people who have gone in or become paralyzed or brain damaged.

Some never change their tune because they are stupid.



Does anyone care what you think is safe or not safe? Stats can be compared and you can qualify anything however you want, safe or unsafe. Some never understand because they are stupid and/or senile.

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