Reflex pop-top question

[franck102 0]

Hi all, I am considering buying a reflex as my first rig. I have read all the Reflex threads on the site, and I understand the reserve takes a bit of practice to pack right and the pop-top may need to be retightened between repacks.
The question I have is, how safe is the rig when the pop-top happens to be less than perfectly tight? The pop-top on the rig I am looking at is quite loose (I can slip more than a finger under the pop-top), and it seems it would be really easy to snag a line under it, especially if deploying while unstable.
Is a not-so-tight Reflex safe to jump? If a line does get caught under the pop-top, could that affect the reserve deployment in any way?
Thanks for your input!
Franck

[quade 3]

If you can slip a finger under it, then, in my opinion, it's NOT safe to jump.

If a line from the main gets caught under the pop-top and you need to cutaway and deploy your reserve -- well, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. It's possible that the reserve pilot chute could separate or be destroyed by the cutaway.

Yeah, that could get ugly.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Jessica 0]

Quote

The pop-top on the rig I am looking at is quite loose (I can slip more than a finger under the pop-top)

That's too much.

Mine works like this: I get a reserve repack. Within a week or two, the reserve settles and the poptop is loose. I have a rigger tighten it. Then, I'm good for the rest of the reserve repack cycle.

You might have the one you're looking at tightened by a rigger, then examine it in a week or so to see how much it's settled.

Other than that little issue, I like my reflex a lot.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[Kirils 1]

I own 2 reflex rigs. It's freefly friendly and the best poptop out there. I've had 4 chops on the rigs and reserve deployment was flawless. The reserve packing thing about having the top re-tightened is only because it wasn't packed correctly. It dosen't pack like a Jav. I've had many repacks from my rigger without it ever needing adjustment. It's not a problem with the rig. A rigger experienced in packing the rig should get right the first time.
Good Luck!

"Slow down! You are too young
to be moving that fast!"

Old Man Crawfish

[PhreeZone 15]

Every Rigger I've ever met has to tighten a Reflex after a few days. Most seem to pack it on Mondy/Tuesday let it sit till friday then tighten it and the customer is never the wiser. Next time at your repack take the rig home with you as soon as its closed and see if you have to have it tightened.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[franck102 0]

Quote

Mine works like this: I get a reserve repack. Within a week or two, the reserve settles and the poptop is loose. I have a rigger tighten it.

That's exactly what I am concerned about - jumping the rig in those 2 weeks. I'll try to find a rigger who can get it to settle during the week as someone suggested, I am more comfortable with that approach...
Thanks for all the feedback!
Franck

[Kirils 1]

You're right. I've had maybe 5 riggers do my Reflex re-packs over the last couple years.
And just like you said,all had to tighten the top again in a few days, (I landed once and had 4" of mesh coming out the top!). BUT...when Wink at AeroOhio packs them and they stay tight. Magic?? Voodoo or cupie doll sacrafice?? I dunno, but his work is proof you can pack a reserve in a Reflex and keep a tight poptop. And his packs work, he saved my ass 2x.

"Slow down! You are too young
to be moving that fast!"

Old Man Crawfish

[pilotdave 0]

I've had very experienced riggers pack mine and need it retightened, and I had a first time rigger pack it once and it lasted the whole repack cycle nice and tight. Other than riggers that are really reflex experts that always get it right, I think it's a lot of luck.
Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

Pullinjg on the line that tightens the pop top on a Reflex is finger-trapped for 1.5 inches. This finger trap is what keeps the pop top tight. With only 1.5 inches finger trapped it isn't very difficult for it to slip. I have seen a rigger increase that 1.5 inch finger trapped section to increase the friction holding the closing loop in place, per the manufacturer's OK. Thier only concern was that the finger-trapped section did not turn the corner through the groment in the pop top down into the free bag. The finger trapped section must be completely on top of the hat, between the edge and the groment.

I won't pack Reflex's because an over-zealous rigger or even the owner can tighten the pop top down far enough to bend the making for a hard/impossible reserve pull. Then if they go in because of it, it will have my seal on it and I would be held responsible for packing the reserve too tight.

Same thing for Racers, they aren't tamper proof.

Hook

[Kirils 1]

"I won't pack Reflex's because an over-zealous rigger or even the owner can tighten the pop top down far enough to bend the making for a hard/impossible reserve pull."

Excellent point! I have heard this before and it is a valid cause for concern.
If I remember correctly, Wink once said the secret of a tight Reflex pop-top was in how the reserve fabric was distributed at the container top.
A top that "loosens up" usually shows at the top side first. I just know this guy can packa tight, Reflex pop-top that stays tight.
I'm curious how the "new" Reflex, Bomber or whatever the name product, compares or holds up. I bought a "flappette" from them (Bomber) to offer me better snag protection and was surprised the stiching was sloppy and assymetrical.

"Slow down! You are too young
to be moving that fast!"

Old Man Crawfish

[billvon 2,400]

>I won't pack Reflex's because an over-zealous rigger or even the
> owner can tighten the pop top down far enough to bend the making
> for a hard/impossible reserve pull.

Have you ever seen this happen? I've tried my absolute best (even got someone to help me) and I couldn't do it.

>Same thing for Racers, they aren't tamper proof.

No rig is.

[billvon 2,400]

>The question I have is, how safe is the rig when the pop-top
> happens to be less than perfectly tight?

There's no safety issue when the main is deployed in a stable position, but a pop-top that's unusually loose (i.e. can snag a line) can cause problems during unstable deployments. I know several people who jump reflexes with PC's that I consider way too loose; they have had no problems.

>If a line does get caught under the pop-top, could that affect the
>reserve deployment in any way?

Normally, no - the extra drag will actually cause a faster reserve deployment. The danger is that you can put enough force on the PC to either break the loop (thus causing a two-canopy-out situation) or bend the pin (thus causing a hard reserve pull.) I have never seen or heard of this happening.

[billvon 2,400]

>I get a reserve repack. Within a week or two, the reserve settles and
> the poptop is loose. I have a rigger tighten it. Then, I'm good for
> the rest of the reserve repack cycle.

Your rigger may not be paying enough attention to the distribution of canopy bulk inside the molar bag before closing the container. It's important to "dimple" the bag before starting to close the container; that creates an area for the PC to settle in. If you don't do this, you can have a PC that doesn't look good even tightened as far as it will go.

[riggermick 6]

I think your information regarding the 1.5" finger trap's location is erroneous. Fliteline never gave anyone permission to place the finger trap portion of the loop on top of the hard cap. The pilot chute/ loop system was designed and built to run vertically through the reserve container, this was done for safety reasons. As far as finger traps slipping I have never seen or heard of it on a properly constructed loop. The real reason the pilot chute loosens up after a pack job on the Reflex is the same reason it happens on all rigs, as air bleeds out of the packed canopy it shrinks and the surrounding container becomes loose. It is more noticeable on "pop top" type rigs than on enclosed pilot chute types. Hope this helps.

Mick Cottle.

[quade 3]

Mick --

Toward the dangers of a main line snag on the pop-top.

I've always considered it pretty scary and I've always thought some pretty nasty stuff could happen, but reading Bills thoughts on the subject, it doesn't seem too bad.

What's your opinion?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Jessica 0]

Quote

Have you ever seen this happen? I've tried my absolute best (even got someone to help me) and I couldn't do it.

Thanks, Bill. Yes, I'm very curious too, Derek....

Skydiving is for cool people only

[skycat 0]

Well I know the pin can be bent, cause when I first got my reflex (bought used) it had a slight bend in it that the rigger straitened out. Every rigger I have ever had pack my reflex has used a temp-pin for tightening the pop-top down except for the last few little tugs to snug it down. Everyone of them has said that reflex pins were softer than pins on other rigs and could bend.

On a side note, before my last repack we tightened my pop-top down before popping the reserve for a repack. After snugging it down the pull force was still only 14lbs.

Fly it like you stole it!

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

>I won't pack Reflex's because an over-zealous rigger or even the
> owner can tighten the pop top down far enough to bend the making
> for a hard/impossible reserve pull.

Have you ever seen this happen? I've tried my absolute best (even got someone to help me) and I couldn't do it.

>Same thing for Racers, they aren't tamper proof.

No rig is.

Unfortunately, I have seen it. You could lift the rig by the reserve handle and yank on it and the pin didn't get pulled.

I should have said tamper reisitant.

Hook

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I think your information regarding the 1.5" finger trap's location is erroneous. Fliteline never gave anyone permission to place the finger trap portion of the loop on top of the hard cap. The pilot chute/ loop system was designed and built to run vertically through the reserve container, this was done for safety reasons. As far as finger traps slipping I have never seen or heard of it on a properly constructed loop. The real reason the pilot chute loosens up after a pack job on the Reflex is the same reason it happens on all rigs, as air bleeds out of the packed canopy it shrinks and the surrounding container becomes loose. It is more noticeable on "pop top" type rigs than on enclosed pilot chute types. Hope this helps.

Your right about the location of the finger trap, so much for my memory The finger trapped secton was between the groment in the hat and the reserve pin.

The concern was to make sure the finger trap didn't round the corner through the top of the PC hat, through the gromment. I remember the rigger getting permission to make the finger trapped section slightly longer to help prevent it from slipping, as long as it didn't round the corner through the groment on the PC hat.

When I re-pack a reserve, I pre-stretch the loop, make it the correct length, and I don't have a problem with the loop stretching, or the pilot chute or pack job becoming loose.

Hook

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

Unfortunately, I have seen it. You could lift the rig by the reserve handle and yank on it and the pin didn't get pulled.

Was it simply tightened following the instructions? No other problems (bent pin or something)? I've only pulled mine once (on the ground) when it was at a normal tightness and it was easy to pull. It was packed as tight as the rigger could get it, so I can't imagine someone packing it so tight the pin couldnt be pulled. I dunno though. I have already decided that whenever I decide to get a new rig it won't be another reflex, but I'm happy with it. I've just let all the unfounded fear many skydivers have about it get to me. (I say unfounded because 99% of the safety issues I've heard about it have never actually happened. Most of them seem to be rumors that have spread.)

Dave

[billvon 2,400]

>You could lift the rig by the reserve handle and yank on it and the
> pin didn't get pulled.

I've seen this too, although I've seen that happen on a Talon. You could pick up the rig and jiggle it by the reserve handle, no reserve deployment. When the owner put it over his shoulders, and pulled the handle, the reserve deployed normally. At least in the case of the Talon, it seemed like the 90 degree bend made in the reserve ripcord was sufficient to increase the pull force significantly (or at least beyond the weight of the rig.)

The hardest pulls I've had on any rig that I've owned have been on my Racer. I didn't have a scale, but I was guessing around 30lbs on occasion.

[rcjump 0]

Hi Mick , about the mods are the top & bottom or just top . have you been to davis lately.and as for reserves my rigger suffed one size bigger , and the retightening is no problum it takes the rigger 2min to retighten the poptop and my reflex is real comfortable..................

[btvr 0]

When I was looking into buying a Reflex, I asked a rigger what he thought of them. He then advised me that it was a good rig but had one flaw and that was that the pop top sometimes came a little loose a few days after the re pack. I bought it, the 1999 millenium deal. It was well worth it. Re pack before last it was a little loose. But not bad at all. I was all geared up and ready to go on a load with a 5 minute call and asked the rigger if it was ok. He told me to lay down and tightened it while I was wearing it! It stayed that way the rest of the re pack term. Next re pack it was nice and tight. I think the more a rigger gets familiar with the rig, the pop top gets to be less of an issue. The reflex is a nice and comfortable rig with full bridle protection and the riser tuck tabs are awesome. They never come un done. You don't see too many reflexes at my home Dz. I was told that reflexes are more common on the west coast I'm on the east coast. But no matter where you are it is a good rig! Good luck in your decision!

[riggermick 6]

I feel that a line snagging under the pilot chute cap is not as big an issue as how the line got there in the first place....... think about that one for a moment. Because the reserve is free bag deployed, in the event of a loop snap or ripcord pull the reserve canopy has a reasonable chance of deploying correctly. Like I said before, how the line got there in the first place I think is of greater concern.
Mick.

[riggermick 6]

I believe the pilot chute protector flap mod's are offered for the top flap only. Two reasons for this; 1) It's realativly easy to install. 2) The gaping generally appears at the top of the rig. The mid flap is inherently more complex to build and thus more difficult to modify. Call the factory if you need the mid flap done.
Mick.