Bowling DZOs/managers please read

[davelepka 4]

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Wanting to talk it over and appeal the decision is a bad thing? I think not. It's a quite natural response in many cases like this and many not like this. What? Are you tying to tell him to STFU or something?

Tell me you guys have never wanted to discuss a decision that was made that was detrimental to you.
I'll call BS right up front.

I'm sure it's a natural resonse, and case in point, the OP describes exactly that scenario occurred, as he wrote in the OP-

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over the next 30 minutes or so, I was introduced to the operations manager and one of the owners. It became clear I was “out”. I asked for one more jump, but to no avail.

Does that not describe a discussion, an appeal for another jump, and the final decision of the DZO/staff? I think it does, but the guy continues with his post, and then suggests the following-

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I would encourage DZOs to put some policy or program in place to allow some sort of appeal. Share your policy/process with students that you think should not be jumping. Find a way to spend time with them and see what they really want, why, and see if you can help them

As far as I can tell (or nay of us really, because the guy is short on details), he recieved the very treatment he's advocating for, it's just that his 'appeal' ended with the same result, that he was not going to jump at that DZ anymore.

What the fuck more does he want? Should the DZ hire an independent, thrid-party mediator to come in and settle the issue?

You can point the finger at me for being harsh, and likewise I could point it right back at you for being soft. Given the info we have, it appears that he was treated fairly, and given the time and consideration of several senior staff members. His beef seems to be that they stuck to their guns and did give him what he wanted, and in my book that called whinning.

The way I see it, the DZ passed up on an eager, willing student with money to spend. Show me the DZ that would do that without good cause, and then maybe I'll side with the student. Given the lack of eager willing, well-funded students out there, I have to think that the experienced, professional skydivers who made the choice that it wasn't a good idea to continue jumping with this student made a good call, and unless the guy can prove otherwise, I'll stand behind my conclusion.

[jclalor 12]

I know of one DZO that will be more than happy to take all your money up front for AFF, then take 3-4 months to " fit you in between tandems". They would have no problem finding a "performance" issue to get you to stop calling.

While the vast majority of DZO's and AFFI's are on the up-and-up, it sure isn't all of them.

[Ron 7]

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No Ron. How can you possibly review processes and procedures if none exist?

How about this process:
1. Instructor decides that the student is dangerous.
2. Instructors get together and discuss the situation.
3. Instructor tells student of their decision.
4. Instructor and student talk to Head Instructor
5. Student and Head Instructor talk to DZM and DZO.

Wait.... That is EXACTLY what happened.
#2 Consensus review.
#4 Student pleads his case to supervisor
#5 Student pleads his case to manager and owner.

The student had THREE reviews and TWO appeals.

Again, just because he didn't SEE it does not mean it didn't happen.

You seem to act like if it is not on paper and does not end in a review board with some governmental power like the NLRA and NTSB that it just could not exist.

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Do you know a single DZ where a student is given 'the talk' without any discussion between the instructor and the head instructor or the GM DZO?

Nope.

Well, there is the first "review" of the appeals process.

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Nobody claimed that. I have no idea where you got that idea.

You are waaay off target tonight.

No, you are way off base here. You claimed it when you said, "How can you possibly review processes and procedures if none exist? "

He claims there was no review. There WAS a review he just didn't SEE the process. YOU also didn't see that there was a process since apparently there were not forms filled out in triplicate and no one had to wear a robe to judge the case.

Just because he and YOU didn't see there was a process.... Does not equal there was no process.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[5.samadhi 0]

hey OP, out of curiosity, what is your race?

I've unfortunately seen plenty of cases of racism toward students (and sexism too)

[wmw999 2,120]

Dude, you've been in the sport 2 years. Yeah, there's racism and sexism out there, but if you've seen that much of it, you're looking for it.

I'm a girl; I've been jumping since the 1970's (when there were even fewer girls). I've seen little sexism that couldn't be overcome with a (very) mildly thick skin. And yes, I was an instructor for part of that time, and I was never one of those "my instructor became my boyfriend" types; I was classed as "intimidating" by some guys.

There were some cases of racism that I saw, but, again, it was more in the need-a-thick-skin variety. I told off the DZO once when he made an untoward comment about a member of the Vietnamese family that my folks sponsored in the 80's. No downstream impact on me.

If I've been in it that long, howsocome I haven't seen as much? The worst prejudice I've ever seen at the DZ is against a guy with an unusually abrasive personality, and few social skills, who also wasn't attractive. Now HE was thick-skinned and persistent

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[popsjumper 2]

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The way I see it, the DZ passed up on an eager, willing student with money to spend. Show me the DZ that would do that without good cause, and then maybe I'll side with the student.

There's the rub. Nobody is asking for anyone to take sides.

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I have to think that the experienced, professional skydivers who made the choice that it wasn't a good idea to continue jumping with this student made a good call,

And that has already been accepted. Again, they made the call that was right for them. No argument there.

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and unless the guy can prove otherwise, I'll stand behind my conclusion.

If you are wanting to determine guilt or innocence on the part of the OP and take sides on the question of whether or not the speech was justified, then you can safely assume that according to the viewpoint of the DZO and staff that he would be guilty as charged. So what?

Again, as 'Twardo put is so elegantly, it's not about the 'why', it's about the 'how'.

And yes, I would admit to being a softie in a case like this. Not so much in other cases, but with respect to the bowling speech, yeah.

For me, there are options to pursue before the speech is given...but then I'm not a DZO. And no, I am not saying that the DZ in question did not pursue any other options.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[5.samadhi 0]

dude, I've worked on different little piece of shit cessna dropzones for 4 years now

I have specifically been told racist things about students in confidence by instructors and DZOs. As if I am racist I dont know what these people are thinking about me if they would talk shit about somebody to me behind their backs because they are black, indian (india indian) or whatever.

Maybe people just take a look at you WMW and realize that you're not going to be amiable toward racist talk? Again, I dont know why somebody would say racist things to me, I'm the furthest thing from racist and I inwardly despise people for letting slip any racism.

[wmw999 2,120]

Then maybe you should make it clear that you're not amiable toward racist talk. You can still work at a DZ and be who you are. Been there, done that. At both a little Cessna DZ (though only for a season), and at a larger one.

If enough people make it clear without being assholes about it, it becomes less acceptable in general.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[5.samadhi 0]

The two dropzones that were the worst offenders involved the DZOs, which is unfortunate because when you are working for a boss it is hard to tell them that they are morally lacking in character unless they happen to be the Dalai Lama

anyways, thats off topic, but I'd still be curious to see what the OP's race is and whether that was a factor.

[popsjumper 2]

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No, you are way off base here. You claimed it when you said, "How can you possibly review processes and procedures if none exist? "

By YOUR words:

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You're assuming that there is not a process.

By YOUR assumption, you are saying that I said that there was no process. We've been talking about the process and procedure all along. How can you possibly suggest that anyone assumes there is not a process?
You were off base here. My response was to YOUR wrong assumption. I can only think that you didn't read the entire thread.

Now if you want to extrapolate my response into my making a claim as you mistakenly assumed, then so be it...and you would still be wrong.


Is this one of those He said/She said rabbit holes?
Read the thread to see what was said....without making assumptions.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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hey OP, out of curiosity, what is your race?

I've unfortunately seen plenty of cases of racism toward students (and sexism too)

OMG...here we go.

Maybe he is a Nazi.
Or a nutter with a gun.
Or a religophobe.
Or a dirty freeflyer.


Your comment is unwelcome here.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ron 7]

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By YOUR assumption, you are saying that I said that there was no process.

No, your WORDS said that. "How can you possibly review processes and procedures if none exist? "

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How can you possibly suggest that anyone assumes there is not a process?

By reading what you wrote.

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Read the thread to see what was said....without making assumptions.

I have, and you clearly said, "And that was his intention and suggestion for procedure review" in post #34 of this thread

To which I replied "You're assuming that there is not a process."

To which you quoted and replied in post #44 of this thread,
"How can you possibly review processes and procedures if none exist? "

So YOU are the one off base here. YOU replied to ME about and QUOTED MY comment about there BEING a process while saying there was not one.

So, you either forgot you said it, communicated like crap, or are trying to be difficult for some reason.

Again, the student had THREE reviews and TWO appeals.
Just because he didn't SEE it does not mean it didn't happen.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[IanHarrop 37]

Pops... Ron....

Have either of you ever seen that line about arguing on the internet....

This is to the point of being silly! Just let it go.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[DiverMike 5]

+1

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[Amyr 0]

Keep your head up Joe I am now at 57 Jumps and no I do not have my A license. At around 23 jumps I refused to quit BUT every week was hoping like hell they would tell me your not cut out for this you need to find another sport. STUPID POISED EXITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I actually graduated AFF 4 times I was promoted and demoted 3 times in 3 days!! I started in October so it was not lack of trying or distance between jumps.

I can exit now still can not flare that well and even got in a canopy class at another DZ to improve this did two landing in the peas last weekend and one of those was stand up My First in the peas and yes i bought beer.

I suck and my money is drained. MY DZ didn't give up on me even though I WISH THEY HAD!!!!!!!!

BUT it sure is a hell of a lot of fun MAN i love jumping from that plane without a doubt my favorite part.

And I can not bowl for shit. Throwing heavy balls down slippery alleys is way to dangerous STICK TO SKYDIVING!

[popsjumper 2]

Give it up Ron. You misread and you're wrong.

Gotta love I-net arguing...even with the obtuse.

If you have to have the last word, go ahead and get it. As has been pointed out, we are making fools out of ourselves.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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And I can not bowl for shit. Throwing heavy balls down slippery alleys is way to dangerous STICK TO SKYDIVING!

You could always use a girrrrrrls ball.
Oh...wait....

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Amyr 0]

Hard to hold the arch with the girls ball

[popsjumper 2]

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Hard to hold the arch with the girls ball

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Freeflaw 0]

I got the bowling speech for asking how to deal with line overs on reserves from one instructor (too scared to jump). Now I rig for the guy on occasion.

[billvon 2,395]

>Threads here on dz about students with problems do suggest cutting a student some
>slack and giving it time, before any bowling speech, if it is mainly a performance issue.

Agreed. But there are other cases where the person simply cannot skydive safely. It's all too easy to just tell the guy "well, you failed, here's why - now I'm gonna pass you onto another instructor, and let you be his problem." I admire the instructors who take the sometimes-necessary but never pleasant path of telling someone in no uncertain terms that they should not be skydiving. It's never an easy speech to give, and it's never easy to hear, but it can and does save lives.

>Unless there was one stunningly dangerous or incompetent act, one would expect a
>"think about it carefully and shape up" speech (& discussion!) before ever escalating to
>the bowling speech.

Sometimes you don't want to wait for that stunningly dangerous event. Indeed, it is the ground instructor's job to have those stunning mistakes happen on the ground, not in the air.

[pchapman 261]

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you don't want to wait for that stunningly dangerous event. Indeed, it is the ground instructor's job to have those stunning mistakes happen on the ground, not in the air.

Fair enough. That's always been one of the tough parts about instructing, trying to figure out who will actually screw up. Incompetence on the ground is normally a reason not to go up, but if the ground work is competent enough, it can be hard to tell who will mess up badly when put to the test in the air.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

I won't try to interject my opinion about who is right or wrong here. I think in order for me (or any of you) to do that, we'd need to hear "both sides of this story".

As I've said up-thread... Something about this situation doesn't sound right? For me, red flags are at full staff. I for one would really like to hear the other side of this story. Is there any chance that will happen? Anyone? Bueller?
Oh, and as for racism/sexism... Really? You need to be very careful when crying wolf.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[jinlee 0]

2 posts by the OP out of a 73 post thread. He is not interesting in replying.

If it's fundamental to the safety of everyone involved no appeal is going to matter. Case in point.

I remember a guy that always needed a drink before getting to the DZ. Twice that I knew of. He didn't get to jump either.

That is a nail in the coffin everyone can agree with.

[popsjumper 2]

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2 posts by the OP out of a 73 post thread. He is not interesting in replying.

Of course not. He asked a question and people got off on a tangent trying to accuse him of irrelevant shit. Completely understandable.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239