Bowling DZOs/managers please read

[rrmtopo 1]

I say man up and post your jump videos....

[sundevil777 93]

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Either give us some specifics or stop wasting our time.

IF 'JoeBob' is who I think it is...hats off for stickin' with it when other would have thrown in the towel.

Perseverance often times trumps 'natural' talent!

First time I went to Marana in the mid 80s, I met an old fixture (very experienced) there that told the story of his first 5 or 6 jumps and that he used his reserve on each of them. Of course it seemed impossible to have so many malfunctions in a row. After a short pause to allow us to wonder, he told us how he would count to 5 in about 1 second (static line procedures) and then pull his reserve without hesitation.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[janz 0]

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I say man up and post your jump videos....

I guess if you called it post yours too. I have seen horrible first jump videos heads down and fetal all the way to pull time. Spinning all the way. Instructors did not give up and studemt got A license in about a month. I'm with the poster on this one. If his ability was less than desirable but had the motivation and the instructors told him to find something else he had horrible instructors.

[airtwardo 6]

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I say man up and post your jump videos....

MINE??

There wasn't video when I started...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[pchapman 261]

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There wasn't video when I started...

Yeah, but the relative wind would dry the clay tablet sketches pretty quick, as long as they didn't get dropped on opening shock.

[popsjumper 2]

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You expect us to just accept that without specific details? Forget it.

Again...he wasn't asking for your judgement. He owes you no details.

Kudos to him for sticking to it....even though he had to go elsewhere.

You want details? Read Wendy's logbook and judge whether or not she should have gotten 'the speech'.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[ixlr82 7]

Wendy has always been open and honest about her early jump history. People are attracted to those traits. We connect with her story. This jumper is, so far, just giving us their opinion (though seemingly with good intention). Perhaps one of her instructors could give the other side, although I realize not likely to happen.

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[danornan 64]

An interesting thread and it brings up an important point.

The first being that it is so much better to error on the side of caution then to, "what the hell," maybe he'll do OK next time! Right or wrong, the DZ did you a favor. Might have even saved your life. You should thank them as opposed to trying to change their policy. People die in this sport and sometimes on their first jump.

It just wasn't working at the first DZ, but YOU solved the problem. Good for you! and welcome to skydiving ....

Dano

[popsjumper 2]

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Wendy has always been open and honest about her early jump history.

Thanks be to God and kiss the sky for that. I point to her logbook quite often for young jumpers who get discouraged.

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This jumper is, so far, just giving us their opinion (though seemingly with good intention).

And that was his intention and suggestion for procedure review. Why in the world would you need HIS jump history to determine if a general review of DZ procedures across the board for the bowling speech is warranted or not?

Are you going to say a review is NOT relevant at other DZs just because you don't agree with his motivation for asking?

It's a good suggestion.
And it applies to both sides of the issue...too strict on giving it? or too loose on giving it? Review your procedures and parameters for giving it or not. Simple as that.

If you still want to focus on his one experience then consider: It was mentioned that to err on the side of caution is a good thing....I agree with that wholeheartedly. His particular experience may have been just that. Does that negate the suggestion for all DZOs to review their procedures and processes? I think not. YMMV.

Besides all that, his call went out to DZOs and Instructors and others who make those decisions....not us fun-jumpers.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ron 7]

You're assuming that there is not a process.
Do you know a single DZ where a student is given 'the talk' without any discussion between the instructor and the head instructor or the GM DZO?

I don't.

Just because he had not SEEN the discussion, does not mean it didn't happen.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[NWFlyer 2]

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You're assuming that there is not a process.
Do you know a single DZ where a student is given 'the talk' without any discussion between the instructor and the head instructor or the GM DZO?

I don't.

Just because he had not SEEN the discussion, does not mean it didn't happen.

And based on the facts that we know, it seems pretty clear that a process was followed. If there hadn't been a process, it's likely the last instructor to jump with him would have said "You're done" the previous time he was at the DZ.

Instead, they waited till his next visit, and no fewer than three people talked to him about the decision and gave the same answer. That doesn't sound at all like a rash decision on the part of one frustrated instructor, but instead a decision that the instructional/management staff came to as a group.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[davelepka 4]

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Just because he had not SEEN the discussion, does not mean it didn't happen

Exactly. If you read the OP, he's lobbying for an 'appeal' process, and what that really means is that he wants his opinion to matter, and in this case it doesn't (and cannot).

The simple fact that the staff is considering giving a student 'the talk' means that the student is not performing up to snuff, and as such, certainly is not qualifed to comment on his own skills or performance. Of course the student believes they can make a safe skydive, or they wouldn't be at the DZ hoping to make another jump. Asking them their opinion will solict nothing more than what you would expect, they want to continue jumping.

It's funny how the OP was willing to trust the judgment of these instructors to guide him through his first 'x' number of jumps, but once they told him something he didn't want to hear, he wants an 'appeal'.

True story - student fails several levels of AFF, something on the order of 10 to 12 horrbile jumps, at which point the student is given the bowling speech and refused any further jumps.

During the winter layoff, the student goes to Skydive Arizona signs up for their FJC without mention of any of his previous experience. He makes it through the program at SDA, earns an A license and makes another 20-some jumps.

Spring arrives, and he returns to Ohio, license in hand and shows up to the DZ ready to jump. Less then 10 jumps later, he goes low on a 4-way, and pulls at break-off altitude without tracking.

The deploying canopy and jumper struck a jumper in freefall, breaking that jumpers arm. The deploying canopy was damaged and the jumper under it was knocked out, left to spiral in under the damamged main. The end result was permanent brain damage, and he was left with the mental capacity of a 5 year old, which I'm sure was just great for his wife and kids.

You want an appeal? How about an appeal to common sense, and when a roon full of expert skydivers tell you to take up bowling, they might just be on to something.

[5.samadhi 0]

^ unleash the beast!!!!! feel the power!!!!!!

[airtwardo 6]

You want an appeal? How about an appeal to common sense, and when a roon full of expert skydivers tell you to take up bowling, they might just be on to something.

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Nope...don't buy it - doesn't account for the human factor of desire.

There are as many examples or more of people that shouldn't have made it but did...their desire to skydive won, they did what they had to.

Some take a different approach, SL instead of AFF, some spend time in the tunnel before trying again and then succeed.

One guy I taught in the 70's had 'problems', I'd always figured the teacher failed to teach so we kept working...he not only 'got it' - he was a vidiot for airspeed and has 3x's the jumps I do. Would have made a lousy bowler.

I agree the sport isn't for everybody...but how many times is the bowling speech given because it's more cost effective regarding the DZ's resources?

I'm not necessarily saying that's wrong either, just that it's not 'always' right.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 2,380]

>but how many times is the bowling speech given because it's more cost effective
>regarding the DZ's resources?

How is it cost effective? An AFF student stuck on level 4 is sort of a cash cow. One JM, two slots, hundreds of dollars a day guaranteed for the DZO.

[jinlee 0]

Always looking for the positive in any sitituation.

Count your blessing you were given the bowling speech by the staff and your DZ friends didn't feel you were "awesome" "cool" and a future "swoop god" otherwise you might be jumping a Katana or Velo by now.

Seemingly there seems to be a lot of that happening, although I am unaware as to how often the bowling speech is given.... rather rarely I think.

[airtwardo 6]

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>but how many times is the bowling speech given because it's more cost effective
>regarding the DZ's resources?

How is it cost effective? An AFF student stuck on level 4 is sort of a cash cow. One JM, two slots, hundreds of dollars a day guaranteed for the DZO.

Honestly I don't know...I'd agree with you it would be better to 'string' them along as far as po$$ible.

However at a Cessna DZ with limited slots and I's they may have another opinion.

Like I said above, if the student failed to learn the teacher failed to teach...in some/many circumstances anyway.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davelepka 4]

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...but how many times is the bowling speech given because it's more cost effective regarding the DZ's resources?

I'd say it's pretty rare. Student jumps all pay the same, pass or fail.

It seems to me that skydiving instructors are a fairly competitive bunch, and generally don't like to fail. If one guy can't seem to 'crack' an egg, there are two or three others willing to give it a shot.

By the time a guy gets the bowling speech, there has to be something behind it. Case in point, whatever it was that got the OP the speech is bad enough that he's not willing to share it with the rest of us.

I'm fairly certain that the only thing the staff at any DZ dislikes more than having to turn a willing student away is seeing a student injured or killed.

[popsjumper 2]

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You're assuming that there is not a process.

No Ron. How can you possibly review processes and procedures if none exist?

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Do you know a single DZ where a student is given 'the talk' without any discussion between the instructor and the head instructor or the GM DZO?

Nope.

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Just because he had not SEEN the discussion, does not mean it didn't happen.

Nobody claimed that. I have no idea where you got that idea.

You are waaay off target tonight.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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If you read the OP, he's lobbying for an 'appeal' process, and what that really means is that he wants his opinion to matter, and in this case it doesn't (and cannot).

Wanting to talk it over and appeal the decision is a bad thing? I think not. It's a quite natural response in many cases like this and many not like this. What? Are you tying to tell him to STFU or something?

Tell me you guys have never wanted to discuss a decision that was made that was detrimental to you.
I'll call BS right up front.

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It's funny how the OP was willing to trust the judgment of these instructors to guide him through his first 'x' number of jumps, but once they told him something he didn't want to hear, he wants an 'appeal'.

What's funny is that you guys would think that is not normal.

What's funny is that you guys seem to think getting a second opinion is a bad thing.

What's funny is that you guys seem to think that getting the speech from on person should disqualify anyone from any further pursuit.

By all rights, the DZO made the call that was right for his business, whatever his reasoning. It in no way applies to every DZO and their business. If that's what you think, then you should start a national register of all those who receive the speech and ban them from any further pursuit of the sport. Right. Lead balloon and all that.

Just what does "appeal" mean to you, anyway?


Yeah, yeah , yeah, your horror story plays well up against Wendy's story. 1 to 1, scores tied.
Well, no it doesn't play well. Any bozo could have done that and other bozos have done that...few of whom ever got the speech.


You guys are acting like jerks calling for blood and trying to hang the guy when the guy simply suggested that people take another look at when and how they use the speech.

His mistake was giving you guys any smell of blood at all.

Geez. Must be a full moon tonight.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[airtwardo 6]

By the time a guy gets the bowling speech, there has to be something behind it. Case in point, whatever it was that got the OP the speech is bad enough that he's not willing to share it with the rest of us.

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Or he doesn't feel it relates to the point of his original post.

I think the 'how' not the 'why' is what he was addressing.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[popsjumper 2]

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Case in point, whatever it was that got the OP the speech is bad enough that he's not willing to share it with the rest of us.

So what? You guys are on a feeding frenzy. Fuck that. He gave you too much already.

WHY he got the speech is NOT the issue, never has been. And you guys can't let that go.

I told him to ignore the thread. You guys are so wrapped up in hammering the guy that you failed to see the suggestion he made.

Fortunately for us, he's a good guy. If he wasn't he'd be here telling you blood seekers to kiss butt.


Edited to add after reading Airtwardo's posts:
OK...'Twardo is excepted. At least one of us gets it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[airtwardo 6]

+1

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DaVinciflies 0]

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So what? You guys are on a feeding frenzy. Fuck that. He gave you too much already.

I tend to agree with you. This sort of attack does not do dz.com any favours, but it is all too common.

Now we have a potential new convert to the sport who was told to fuck off by a dropzone, and again on dz.com.

Then we have threads about retention in the sport and berating "tourists" who don't stay the distance (a term, by the way, which I think is designed to confer the message of "you're not worthy of being in my club"). In the words of Pops; "Fuck that".

[obelixtim 100]

TBF it hasn't all been one way traffic. Without knowing the full story, it is possible the OP was not treated fairly.

Some posts seem to be fairly certain, as if they know something about this case that the rest of us don't. I'm not sure that they do.....

I've seen plenty examples where people are for some reason not welcome on a DZ, and it is not always due to their skydiving ability or lack of.....

I am still interested to know whether he had any indication that there was a problem before he got the speech....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....