Iflyme 0 #26 September 6, 2002 QuoteI'm not against the use of helmets, but I also am wary of jumping on a bandwagon and conferring a blanket endorsement on the basis of a few isolated incidents.Sorry, Alan -- perhaps I interperted your statement wrong... my back goes up whenever anyone questions the value of some protection for one's head. Yes, we need to take steps to avoid incidents like premature deployments (I had one in a stand recently -- and am having my BOC modified to avoid it happening again) -- but just as Lisa continually endorses people not downsizing too fast, I endorse the concept of ALWAYS wearing a helmet. A blanket endorsement? Perhaps... and as these threads show, there are more than "a few isolated incidents..." Didn't mean to offend you -- and I respect your comments in these forums! Frank Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #27 September 6, 2002 QuoteQuoteDo manufacturers test their products for safety AT ALL No. They don't. They'll gladly tell you that too. It's very likely that they never will. Testing would open them up for liability should a "tested and certified" helmet cause (or worsen) an injury or death. No skydiving equipment manufacturer is likely to open themselves up to even more possibility of a lawsuit than they already deal with. I don't get this arguement. Motorcycle helmets are tested to federal and international standards and it doesn't open them up to liability issues. I can certainly understand why a specific company won't state the safety of their helmets, I mean why open yourself up to liability when no one else will? But why isn't there any effort to come up with a standard for safer skydiving helmets? A helmet company wouldn't ever have to say, "our helmets are safe" they'd only need to stand behind their helmet meeting a certain standard(and only then if they stamped their helmet with the standards logo). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #28 September 6, 2002 >Motorcycle helmets are tested to federal and international standards and it doesn't open them up to liability issues. Sure they do. I've seen a lawsuit a few years ago one of my families friends started after his helmet worsend his impact injuries by fracturing and causing puncute injuries on his neck and upper body. He just wanted the medical coverage covered (stupid lawsuit) but the company he sued had to pay out money in the end in both legal fees and setlement.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #29 September 6, 2002 Quote>Motorcycle helmets are tested to federal and international standards and it doesn't open them up to liability issues. Sure they do. I've seen a lawsuit a few years ago one of my families friends started after his helmet worsend his impact injuries by fracturing and causing puncute injuries on his neck and upper body. He just wanted the medical coverage covered (stupid lawsuit) but the company he sued had to pay out money in the end in both legal fees and setlement. That doesn't mean it had anything to do with the certification, unless the company falsely certified their helmet. One of the problems with lawsuit antecdotes is you don't know any of the details. 90% of the products in your house have certifications, many deal with safety. Check the bottom of the keyboard you're typing on, odds are it has certs stamped all over it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #30 September 6, 2002 QuoteBut why isn't there any effort to come up with a standard for safer skydiving helmets? I don't know. I don't build helmets, I sell 'em. If it bugs you, here's a project. Ask the helmet manufacturers. Report back here with the answers you get. If it really bugs you, develop a standard. Work to get it implemented. Once it's in place, duck and cover cuz every jumper in the US is going to scream at you for causing the price of skydiving headgear to go even higher than it is already. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #31 September 6, 2002 The standards on motorcycle helmets aren't required. I don't have to wear a helmet with a SNELL rating, it's just an option if I want to pay for it. Depending on the state I can wear a pro-tech if I wanted. But my Arai SNELL helmet is craploads better than any pro-tech. Just saying it'd be nice to have something similair someday. I mean, you buy a rig or chute and you know safety was the #1 design consideration behind it. I'm sure Mirage, Sunpath, Javelin, etc would stand behind the safety of their gear any day of the week. It's just weird that helmets are treated differently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #32 September 6, 2002 QuoteI'm sure Mirage, Sunpath, Javelin, etc would stand behind the safety of their gear any day of the week. Not in writing they won't. Pick up a copy of the owner's manual for any container or canopy built in the US. Read it. Somewhere in there you'll find what is a standard disclaimer in this industry, much like the following from Aerodyne Research's Triathlon and Diablo manual... "Because of the unavoidable danger associated with the use of this parachute, the manufacturer makes no warranty, either expressed or implied. It is sold with all faults - and without any warranty of fitness for any purpose." Also quoting from AR's owner's manual - "Although the parachute described in this manual is intended to be a lifesaving device, there is no guarantee that it will work if needed." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #33 December 19, 2002 Yesterday's Toronto Star newspaper has Leon Sebek and his wife on the front page. He wears bicycle helmet when out of the hospital to protect the tender spot on his head. He's being dispatched tomorow and he looks %100 in the pic! A very good article here. Some things to note: -Was his 94th jump and "last load of the day" -"He was hugging a spar on the wing (c182), waiting for the signal to let go for a free fall, when rushing air pulled open the little pilot chute, which prematurely deployed his main parachute. It snapped him violently backwards as the big chute filled with air and billowed beyond the plane. Sebek's head slammed against the horizontal stabilizzer on the plane's tail, ripping open his helmet and skull." -Sebek turned 40 in a coma in mid-September. -Doctors were so sure he was going to die that they were already determining which of his organs would be donated. Some quotes from Leon Sebek: -"But I don't intend to die. I've got a letter from the doctors saying I'm not in any immediate daner of croaking." -"I should be able to go back to what I was doing before." -"I feel pretty fortunate the way things have gone, but I wouldn't call it lucky. I mean , luchy would be to have the chute open and miss the plane entirely." And most imprtantly.... -"I was fearless before and now I realize Im not invincible." Anyway, just thought I'd update this thread with the good news. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #34 December 19, 2002 >But my Arai SNELL helmet is craploads better than any pro-tech. Not sure about that; informal tests have shown that protecs are pretty good. Most full face helmets are pretty bad though. >I mean, you buy a rig or chute and you know safety was the #1 > design consideration behind it. Uh, dude, people intentionally buy the least safe mains possible, and rig manufacturers are happy to sell you a container that is too small for a reserve that will land you safely. PD will be happy to sell you a main which was designed for performance first, with safety coming in a distant second. This is, of course, our fault. Looking cool, fit, popularity, landing fast etc are generally the driving forces behind equipment selection, at least for the new generation of skydivers. Want the a rig where safety is concern #1? Get a 1:1 Spectre, a .8:1 PD reserve and any of the popular rigs with a cypres and an RSL. Get both canopies in gray with a contrasting center cell (easier to inspect and pack, and thus a tiny bit safer.) Now go to the DZ and see how many people actually use such a rig. Manufacturers are simply building what we ask for. >I'm sure Mirage, Sunpath, Javelin, etc would stand behind the safety >of their gear any day of the week. They all try to build a good product. None of them warrantees their products. Often they do not take advantage of new safety advances, like hard cable channels in risers. You can even get systems that are proven killers (the racer RSL) if you want; decide yourself if the tradeoff is worth it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ruffles 0 #35 December 20, 2002 Bill, how/ when did a Racer RSL kill someone? I am not contesting it, I've just never heard that before. What happened? Clark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #36 December 20, 2002 Quote Bill, how/ when did a Racer RSL kill someone? I am not contesting it, I've just never heard that before. What happened? Clark I'll try to find it too. The racer has the option of a dual rsl. It's attached to both risers. If the reserve is deployed first, then the main is deployed, since the rsl is attached to both risers, it creates a loop around all the line groups of the reserve. It then chokes off the reserve as it slides up the lines. You can figure out the rest. The owners manual states something on the lines of this. "If the main is to be cutaway after the reserve has been deployed, simply disconnect one side of the RSL". That is not verbatum but it's close. " Simply disconnect" is written in the manual in plain english. Simply! ...Yep. it really says that.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spy38W 0 #37 December 20, 2002 QuoteThe racer has the option of a dual rsl. It's attached to both risers. If the reserve is deployed first, then the main is deployed, since the rsl is attached to both risers, it creates a loop around all the line groups of the reserve. It then chokes off the reserve as it slides up the lines. You can figure out the rest. Hrm, I haven't seen a Racer RSL, I've never been able to fully conceptualize the theory/method of operation. Does anybody have pictures, or can anybody take pictures of the system? -- Hook high, flare on time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #38 December 20, 2002 racer download the manual here, http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=MANUAL look on page 16 for a picture (imagine a reserve out first with that) then read page 9 and 10.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #39 December 20, 2002 >Bill, how/ when did a Racer RSL kill someone? A while back (8 years?) a jumper opened their main, had an AAD misfire, and cut away the main. The two sided RSL slid up the lines of the reserve, collapsing it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spy38W 0 #40 December 20, 2002 Quote racer download the manual here, http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=MANUAL look on page 16 for a picture (imagine a reserve out first with that) then read page 9 and 10. Cool, thanks much, I can't believe I didn't think to check there... Interesting... -- Hook high, flare on time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
groundrushpull 0 #41 December 23, 2002 I read your post and was confused about your info. I forwarded it to the manufacturer and Nancy responded with this info...I am sure if you have any questions u can get a hold of her directly Hi John, I went to dropzone.com and couldn't find the thread, but perhaps you would be so kind to post this reply for me. The facts are these: There have been many fatalities associated with single sided RSLs. Most occurred because the RSL- linked riser released prior to the non-linked side. At least one fatal entanglement occurred because a main tandem riser with an RSL connection broke. Another single-side RSL fatality occurred because a static line student accidentally snagged his left (RSL) side cutaway cable on something (not sure if it was the door) prior to climbing out of a Cessna, resulting in a main deployment with one riser still attached and a deployed reserve. A cross connecting RSL would have prevented that fatality. Single sided RSL's are an accident waiting to happen. You can do everything right, procedurally and still be foiled due to a hesitation in release or the broken riser scenario. There has been one fatality (in over 40 years of cross connected RSL use), associated with a cross connecting RSL due to pilot error, but it did not occur as described by Bill. The reserve will not slide up the lines and choke off or collapse the reserve. There is too much tension on the reserve lines for that to occur. What is likely to happen if you have two inflated canopies out and fail to release at least one snap shackle before cutting away (as is discussed in the Owners Manual in the event of a two canopy out situation, where, by the way, the fall has been arrested, and there is time to evaluate the situation and decide whether or not to cut away), is that you may induce a "butterflying" down plane, as the main canopy will assymetrically load. That is, it will "fly" in and out of a downplane. The important point here is, that knowing your emergency procedures, and knowing your equipment will ALWAYS prevent such an accident. That one fatality was absolutely preventable. What the thread on the internet fails to state, is that the failure modes of the Single sided RSL are greater in number and more severe that the difficult to acheive failure mode of the cross connecting RSL. Read "Everything You Should Know About RSL's" on www.jumpshack.com. The importance of simultaneous release is paramount. That's why John Sherman has spent so much time and energy developing the most reliable release system in the world. Jump Shack has redefined 3-ring riser specifications, introduced extendable / non-commpressible cutaway cable housings, Teflon coated Type 2 A, and Teflon coated, maintainence-free cutaway cables. Jump Shack is the only manufacturer (and Racer is the only harness/container system) that guarantees a 22 pound or less cutaway force (just like your r/c pull force) and simultaneous release (there is a small tolerance there), even under an 8 "G" 200 pound load. 8 G's. Think about the significance of that! It's a multi-layered subject. I will answer other specific questions, if you or they come up with more. Nancy LaRiviere John Maggio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nubain1 0 #42 December 24, 2002 I agree with both sides.The Pin check camp and the helmet camp.As far as helmets go,They are like seat belts.They can save a life and they can take a life.I have personally seen where a seat belt was a direct cause of death in a crash.So they have their pros and cons.As everything does.Except for a pin checkI cannot see any downside to getting one or more.On my last jump,I had 3 pin checks by 3 different people . And that was before getting on the plane.I got another 2 checks onthe way up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajun 0 #43 December 24, 2002 QuoteI agree with both sides.The Pin check camp and the helmet camp.As far as helmets go,They are like seat belts.They can save a life and they can take a life.I have personally seen where a seat belt was a direct cause of death in a crash.So they have their pros and cons.As everything does.Except for a pin checkI cannot see any downside to getting one or more.On my last jump,I had 3 pin checks by 3 different people . And that was before getting on the plane.I got another 2 checks onthe way up. Only thing I can see bad about a pin check is make sure you trust the person giving it to you. Main reason I never get a pin check is some people can seem to close my javelin properly. I've had my main flap come open way too many times on FF jumps. But the way I see it, be careful when you pack, be careful in the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbates 0 #44 December 24, 2002 He's recently went home from hospital. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jbone 0 #45 December 24, 2002 "how/ when did a Racer RSL kill someone?" I believe that incident happened at Frankfort, IN (Skydive Indiana which recently closed) less than 10 years ago. I remember that the gear was fairly new to the guy. Jay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #46 December 24, 2002 I really dislike the fact that if you get into a double out with an RSL racer you now have to add one more step to your emergengy procedures to have a clean break away. If the rig is loaned out to someone that has no idea about this issue and how to solve it it could be bad. Plus trying to open a french link with think winter gloves on like what we have to use in the winter is far from easy, I'd rather not have to worry about in a downplane disconnecting a rsl on either side just to break away. There are issues with all types of gear, this is no different.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wallygator 0 #47 December 26, 2002 ther is another update on leon sebek, in the toronto sun, don't know how to post a link, but try going here,torontosun.com, the story item is ''It's a Miracle''. blue skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #48 December 26, 2002 Quotether is another update on leon sebek, in the toronto sun, don't know how to post a link, but try going here,torontosun.com, the story item is ''It's a Miracle''. blue skies http://www.canoe.ca/TorontoNews/ts.ts-12-25-0019.html -P__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #49 December 26, 2002 I don't like Racer's double-sided RSL either. Back in the early days of RSLs and piggybacks, several other manufacturers copied the Racer RSL, but later discontinued it. Our manifestor will cheerfully (or is that tearfully) tell you a story about her student days, when she tried to cutaway her main, but the RSL hung up on the back of her helmet and she remained suspended by her chin strap. She did not enjoy that jump. If you insist on a double-sided RSL, then go with the French pattern of two completely separate RSLs, each with its won pin. Each pin has its own closing loop. So on a Parachutes de France reserve, you have closing loops routed through the same grommets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #50 December 26, 2002 QuoteYesterday's Toronto Star newspaper has Leon Sebek and his wife on the front page. ... A very good article here. ... Anyway, just thought I'd update this thread with the good news. And the link to that article here: http://www.thestar.ca/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035775707224&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News -P__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
