9 v. 7 cell

[Michele 1]

O.K., so it's official. I can't land. The suggestion was made that I try out the Sabre2 as it has a less steep descent rate.

I have no clue. I love the Spectre, which is all I've ever been under except for student stuff. But if I can't land it, then no matter how nice it feels on opening or while in flight, it's no good for me. So aside from the obvious: "Learn to land, stupid" (which, if you read the post on the Talk forum, you know I am trying hard to do), what would the benefit be of staying in the Spectre? Moving to the Sabre2? As they used to say in school, "compare and contrast" the canopies for me. And yes, I understand it's simply your opinion. But that's what I want - a plethora of opinions from which I can base a conclusion on after discussing it thoroughly with someone who knows how I fly.

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[quade 3]

The main advantage I can think of in favor of sticking with the Spectre for now is that it's a known quantity for you.

Switching canopies at this point would throw in a bunch of new characteristics and it would be a few jumps before you could determine if the reactions you were getting from the canopy were because of something you were doing or because you switched canopies.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[fasterfaller 0]

I would put my money into canopy control lessons . You might be doing something that you are not aware of . Have someone video your landings .The spectre is a great canopy . It is capable of all kinds of landings from tip toe to an ass on fire swoop .

[Jessica 0]

Michele, I've jumped a Sabre2 at a loading probably similar to what you'd try. I loved the landings, but they were very fast, and very long, and very swoopy. I don't think that's what you want right now.

I think if you stick with the Spectre, you'll eventually get the timing down. I know it's hell, it was hell for me too, but you will get it.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[PhillyKev 0]

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Michele, I've jumped a Sabre2 at a loading probably similar to what you'd try. I loved the landings, but they were very fast, and very long, and very swoopy. I don't think that's what you want right now.

I think if you stick with the Spectre, you'll eventually get the timing down. I know it's hell, it was hell for me too, but you will get it.

Completely agree. Went from Spectre to Sabre2. The Sabre2 is more fun to land, but I think it was easier on the Spectre.

[VectorBoy 0]

Michele I had the same problem on my first spectre. Shitty landings 60% of the time and after a just about perfect record on everything I've ever jumped since starting AFF from the big skymasters to a demo spectre 190 @ 1:1. It couldn't have been me ?
I had to induce a little extra speed in the form of a shallow turn or hang a little double front riser ( not something a person with a handfull of jumps wants to do close to the ground BTW ) just to insure I didn't scream through the flare past any ground effect into a facial PLF. I had people watch my landings and they said I was doing everything right except that nasty part at the end. And didn't recommened low turns untill I could land that chute.
It turned out all I needed was to get rid of a really humongus non-collapsing pilot chute that was spoiling alot of my glide, which 7 cells have little to waste. After installing a kill line PC not only was the canopy flying fast enough for a proper flare but on the first attempt I shot back up into the air. I didn't take long to adjust after and not having to do stupid things to gain speed for a flare was really a confidence enhancer.
Now I believe that the DEMO gear your on has all the modern goodies like collapsing PC's? Could YOU be doing anything to kill your glide and speed required for flare early in the final approach ? Breaking or starting to flare too soon?
I personally don't think going to the sabre2 will help. In fact it may compound your problem by being semi-elliptical enough that any un-even toggle input starts to turn you one way or another hard during your flare. This happens to everybody and it is an issue even on a spectre. And thats where you learn to tame that, on a canopy that isn't so sensitive to turns. But a sabre 2 is a good ride and I recommend you demo one later. After many more jumps. You may have better luck on a 9 cell but not one that turns too easy.
I love the spectre but many people who don't DO like the flare of the original sabre ( I can't stand to be spanked on openings ).
It does have better flare and its not too turn happy.
If you can demo one and have the packers do it up as spank resistant as possible That may be your ticket. Don't give up, get experienced people to watch you land and try different gear or UP size if you can. After you lick this problem you can get some more confidence and skill , fly in proximity to others and tippy toe it on the grass in front of Jacks digital.

[Shark 0]

Michele,

I agree with Quade. Stay with the one who brought you to the party.

And as far as Jessica's suggestion, keep in mind that it is more than just wing loading. Line length is also a key factor on a canopy, and is different even at similar wing loadings. ie. the smaller canopy will have much shorter lines.

Get a few more jumps with the Spectre.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

This question is sort of related to this topic.
As a student/novice skydiver, I can't help but find myself researching what might be the best first canopy for when it's time to buy a rig (I'm thinking of getting serious in the September/October/November time frame). Now I will be checking out the used markets, but if I don't find something I like, I will buy new. I say this because I haven't been all that impressed with what I've seen on the local as well as internet used markets for a relatively big guy like myself (I weigh about 205-210 lbs). But I've also only been looking for a couple of weeks, so I shouldn't be too judgemental. Of course I'm getting off track here.
So here's the question:
At first I was thinking that a Spectre in the 210 to 230 size range would be a good first canopy, and then I was thinking that a Sabre 2 once again in the 210 to 230 size range would be good. But now (based on it's easier packing characteristics), I'm thinking that the Triathlon 220 would be good (it's size is also in between the 210s and 230s). Now the Spectre and Triathlon must be somewhat similar in their handling characteristics as both are 7 cells while the Sabre 2 is a 9 cell. And if I understand what has been said here, the Spectre (and I would assume the Triathlon) will have steeper glideslopes on short final, but the Sabre 2 will have a faster swoop (not that these are HP swoopers). And as long as I stay in the 1.0 to 1.1 wing loading range I would assume that I'm not getting myself into something that's over my head. So how do people feel about the Spectre, Sabre 2 and Triathlons? From what I've been reading, they all seem to be marketed as good novice to intermediate canopies. Am I mistaken?
PS: Dang this software developer job of mine is brutal. It pays very well (hence the reason why buying a new rig doesn't scare me), but all I've been doing is working all week long trying to get our product out the door. Of course thinking about skydiving isn't helping. Back to the coal mines, my build should be done ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,400]

>what would the benefit be of staying in the Spectre? Moving to the
> Sabre2?

Sabre 2 pros -
Stronger flare
Better glide

Sabre 2 cons -
Requires more steering during the flare (i.e. more likely to go left or right during the flare and dump you)
Less consistent openings
Flare requires better timing

[TomAiello 25]

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So how do people feel about the Spectre, Sabre 2 and Triathlons? From what I've been reading, they all seem to be marketed as good novice to intermediate canopies. Am I mistaken?

Dude, big question. Maybe you ought to start a new thread on that?

I'll send you a PM with some thoughts, in an attempt not to side track this thread.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[drenaline 0]

Some personall opinions and advices: Always practice everything high, practice your flare up high right after opening (completely opened), practice against the wind, and with the wind, learn how your canopy reacts and how it flies, and do it everytime you jump, different days different winds and temperatures. Make that muscle memory kick in on all your landings. Everytime you flare check your altimeter (how much altitude was for the flare), look at the ground and see how much horizontal distance it took for the flare, learn how your baby spectre works/flies

Fly your landings.

for the supplemental help: Get video, when you see the video try to see if you chicken out and do a PLF thinking you were not gonna land it nice, see if you made a good judgment on the PLF or not to PLF, look at how high you did your flare, both hand down? one hand more than the other? 2 stage flare not workin? not enough flare input? check that out.

additional help: Jump with radio.

Best advice: Canopy controll course.

good advice: make lots of hop n pop and practice your 3 leg entry on every jump, practice it high, if you open at 3000fts most prolly you will be able to do 3 practice of the 3 leg entry before landing.

Personall Experience: bought a spectre that was too small for me (jumped from a PD 230 to a spectre 150, a wingload of 0.7 to 1.2) first 10 to 12 jumps were rolling, PLF, butt, knee, wrist, the works! thank god I didn't got seriously hurt. My last 2 PLF were cause I was too scared to try to land that I did a PLF when I could easily land it standing, got a PLF mind block or PLF muscle memory dunno wich of the two. Now sometimes I get some hard landings but they are all standings, it takes some time and practice, once you start landing on your feets you will see how easy it is (knock on wood ).

Flamers if you want to correct me in any way or in anything I have said wrong please do in a nice way, do it without the flame.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[Shark 0]

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Flamers if you want to correct me in any way or in anything I have said wrong please do in a nice way, do it without the flame.

[JFC3 0]

Michele,

I love my Spectre and try this out. The Spectre has a great glide if you know how to get it. As was mentioned in one post the more speed you have the better but unless you really know what you're doing. But a good plane can be achieve on a standard approach to.

Use a two stage flare. Always look 45 degrees in front of you, never straight down. As you get ready to do your flare snap it to half brakes. Not all the way. Half brakes will let you glide along the ground a bit. Not like a swoop and not incredibly fast, but don't put your feet down yet because then you end up running it out and you shouldn't need to do that.

Just after you get into your little glide finish off your flare. This will bring you upright and softly onto your feet. Remember to flare evenly so you don't get turned off to one side.

I hope that helps.

"Five days? But I'm angry now!"

[CanuckInUSA 0]

This two stage flair seems to be a good tactic for many canopies, not just for the Spectre.
Comments ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[quade 3]

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This two stage flair seems to be a good tactic for many canopies, not just for the Spectre.

I think that the real problem with the "two stage flair" is really the name itself.

It implies that there is something magical about two distinct positions that people should hold their toggles at. In fact, NOTHING could be further from the truth.

I had some pretty good success in coaching Michele this last weekend about using an appropriate amount of flair at different points in her landings and as a result, she was able to go from whacking in the week before to actually doing nice little stand-ups.

Actually seeing your height above the ground is also a huge tip. Many people will tell you that you should look here or there, but very few people actually have a clue as to what to look for or how to judge their height above the ground.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver