billvon 2,393 #26 July 30, 2002 > believe that TSO-23C is 254lbs and TSO-23D is 300. Actually, 23D allows you to determine your own max load and certify to that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,393 #27 July 30, 2002 >Who knows, both might be fine during tests at 254 lb due to similar > construction, but I like the idea of having that extra bit of actual > demonstrated strength. Warning - it may have nothing at all to do with demonstrated strength. It may be that they needed to reduce the weight to meet the requirements for minimum descent rate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #28 July 31, 2002 most of the max weights on the reserve are put for the best performance of the reserve, so it doesn't mean it will blow up it you go over it, you just won't be at the weight for the best glide ratio, or best flare, but it still will be safe(to a point, like i don't think a 254 pound jumper under a pd 106 is too safe, it may handle the weight on opening, it's just after that) as to my favorite reserve, i like tempo and pd. i have rides under a tempo and pdr. both landed me fine. blue sky's and long swoops kelly "hook low, flare late.............dirt, tumble, dirt..........ouch" ps: i will not ever own a raven, i never did like the flight performance of them(stalls easly) and now that the dash-m's were blowing apart, it just stresses even more that i don't want one. but that's just my opinion. but to back that up even more, on the flight performance, just had a friend break his back under his dash-m 120, it stalled, now it was his falt that it stalled, but it stalled just below his shoulder and a couple years ago i had a friend that went in because his dash-m's lines broke(before the service bulitin). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flipper 0 #29 August 2, 2002 tempo 150 is the one i use....twice to date....opens real nice ...without ' blowing up'....flys well and lands well....dosnt cost a fortune and my rigger also raves about the things.... also have used tandem reserves....that seem to fly better than the mains..! flipper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #30 September 5, 2002 Quote One reason I like the PD-126 over the 113 is that from the PD-253 on downwards to the PD-126, the certification weight is 254 lb. For the PD-113 and 106, that weight was reduced to 220 lb. Who knows, both might be fine during tests at 254 lb due to similar construction, but I like the idea of having that extra bit of actual demonstrated strength. To update my original post: I have since read that PD did drop test their smallest reserves to a higher weight than necessary for the certification weight. As others noted, the certification weight may therefore be to satisfy descent rate requirements. They tested to 300 pounds and 180 knots, I was told, which corresponds to the *1.2 factor used for certification to the typical 254 lb and 150 kts. Good to hear!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #31 September 5, 2002 Tempo 150 here. It's a nice bright neon international orange so you can see it for miles away. 0 jumps. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #32 September 5, 2002 Tempo 150. Again, the only new canopy (both, main and reserve) I will ever buy is a PISA one.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #33 September 5, 2002 I thought Tempos only came in white? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #34 September 5, 2002 Hmm I'll doublecheck my reserve when I get home, but I am almost 100% positive it's a Tempo. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #35 September 5, 2002 6 jumps on the Tempo (3 are mine). I would buy one again. I would also consider a PD. Never heard anything bad about either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dterrick 0 #36 September 5, 2002 Quoteps: i will not ever own a raven, i never did like the flight performance of them(stalls easly) and now that the dash-m's were blowing apart, it just stresses even more that i don't want one. I jump one as a MAIN !! It's an old one (circa '91) with hundreds of jumps over and above the 75 or so I've "endured". This sucker likes Ska! I was slammed so many times learning to pack it that I killed ALL 4 slider grommets, the slider, and stress damaged a riser! I'm either bulletproof or stupid (and I'm not THAT young) but I've had line twists on opening only 3 times and not that many more off-headers. With its age and my loading at at nearly 1:1 the glide slope at anything but full drive can be quite steep (think round in some wind ), but I have yet to blow it up - or be required to buy the 'bones Beer' Dave T PS: my as-yet-untested reserve is a Strong Stellar. Same colour....what mal? Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #37 September 5, 2002 pd143 reserve I want my reserve to be able to land me without getting maimed if I am unconscious. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rendezvous 0 #38 September 5, 2002 ISO 9001 certified doesn't really mean that it's certified for high quality. What ISO 9001 does is that it certifies that the processes that are producing a certain quality right now and the services that you offer will remain consistent. For example if you are producing 'A' grade quality you'll continue to be consistent in doing so and if you are producing 'B' grade right then your processes are geared to do so in the future too. In a nut shell, it certifies that whatever you are doing you'll continue to do it consistently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BPO 0 #39 September 5, 2002 My reserve is a Techno155. Bought it because my rigger advised me to. Never jumped it though (knocking on wood like a mad-man). Am I the only one on the forums jumping a Techno? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #40 September 5, 2002 People in the States can not easly jump a Techno since PdF does not sell them here.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #41 September 5, 2002 QuoteQuoteps: i will not ever own a raven, i never did like the flight performance of them(stalls easly) and now that the dash-m's were blowing apart, it just stresses even more that i don't want one. I jump one as a MAIN !! well, i did forget to say, the ones that are loaded up, like at 1.3 or 1.4 and up, are the ones that stall really easly. and i am talking about dash-m's anyway. as to you having a raven as a main, well all i have to say is i'm sorry, no just kiding, but you'll have that(the hard openings) when you jump a reserve as a main. later blue sky's and long swoops kelly "hook low, flare late..............dirt, tumble, dirt............ouch" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kris 0 #42 September 7, 2002 Quote Tempo 150 here. It's a nice bright neon international orange so you can see it for miles away. 0 jumps. QuoteI thought Tempos only came in white? True, Skreamer. The Tempo only comes in white. The orange he saw was probably the freebag for the reserve. The freebag on my old Talon was safety orange and was visible at the top corners of the rig if you pulled them back a bit to look. It makes it easier to find in the event of a cutaway. The freebag & PC on my Mirage G3 is white. I hope I don't have a cutaway on a snowy day. If you weren't thinking about the fact that you were looking at a freebag it would be easy to think that orange fabric belonged to your reserve. Kris Happy Tempo 210 ownerSky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beezyshaw 0 #43 November 15, 2006 I was just doing some reading concerning certification and required testing and documentation of reserve canopies manufactured under TSO-C23d. I have been involved in manufacturing canopies for many years, but as many know I am now only involved with the mfr/distribution of main canopies. Anyway, as I was reading the documents for TSO approval, I came across a very interesting requirement that started me digging a little bit into just how "legal" certain reserve canopies may actually be... QuoteMaximum Operating Limits, General: Parachute assemblies, or components, may be certificated for any operating weight limit equal to or greater than 220 lb (100 kg), and for any pack opening airspeed equal to or greater than 150 KEAS (277.8 km/h). So, according to that statement, these tiny reserves on the market today MUST be certified to no less than 220 lbs, yet on some documentation I see maximum weights of far less than that number. It seems that PD and Aerodyne's canopies comply with the requirement, but looking at the Icarus reserve and the Precision R-Max, they show maximum weights for their smaller sizes less than the required 220 lbs. While PD and Aerodyne "recommend" maximum weights far less than 220 for their smaller canopies, they do actually state that the canopies have maximums that meet the TSO requirement. Now, I'm familiar with the argument that these lower weights are to keep these canopies in compliance with the canopy velocity/rate of decent limitations, but that argument is not valid; the way I interpret the requirements, these reserves must meet rate of decent and total velocity limits at no less than 220 lbs, not some arbitrary number the manufacturer assigns. QuoteRate of Descent Tests, All Types: There shall be not less than 6 drops, with an individual and/or dummy in each harness weighing not less than the maximum operating weight. The average rate of descent shall not exceed 24 ft/s, and the total velocity shall not exceed 36 ft/s, in an unaltered post deployment configuration, corrected to standard sea level altitude conditions. And the above TSO requirement brings me to my next point. I have my doubts about the ability of ANY these companies' smallest reserve canopies to meet the above criteria. Even though the documentation and required placards indicate that a PD and Aerodyne 99 are "legal" reserves, I cannot believe those canopies can have slow enough decent rate and total velocity at a suspended weight of 220 lbs. http://www.precision.aero/OrderForms/QGZ%20Order%20Form%20r-Max.pdf http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Reserve-Flight-Char-v3.pdf http://www.icaruscanopies.aero/canopies/Reserve/index.htm http://www.flyaerodyne.com/fly/products/smartSelector.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BKR 0 #44 November 15, 2006 Big hit and this is not the only one you could find out.Jérôme Bunker Basik Air Concept www.basik.fr http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base_rigger 0 #45 November 15, 2006 This is not true. For the smallest r-max (108) the max susp. weight is 220 lbs so within the minimum. However they recomend "expert" not to be more than 140 lns.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base_rigger 0 #46 November 15, 2006 Oh, forgot, all Icarus reserves have a max of 255 LBS.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beezyshaw 0 #47 November 15, 2006 QuoteFor the smallest r-max (108) the max susp. weight is 220 lbs so within the minimum. However they recomend "expert" not to be more than 140 lns. I went to the Precision website and took my information from the only documents concerning the R-Max that I could find. Same thing with the Icarus website. If those canopies are certified to the required weights, they failed to document those facts on any of their web content. So if Icarus and Precision's reserves are all max'd at at least 220 lbs, I stand corrected. I stick by my second point, that I doubt if any of the small reserves can actually pass the requirements concerning rate of decent and total velocity, and people like Manley Butler would strongly agree with me on that. Edit: The attached documents were all I found on Icarus' and Precision's websites as far as specs of their reserve go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites champu 1 #48 November 15, 2006 Quotewell, i did forget to say, the ones that are loaded up, like at 1.3 or 1.4 and up, are the ones that stall really easly. I have two reserve rides, one on a Raven at about 1.2 and the second on a PDR at 1.4. On the Raven I popped my brakes and did a quick control check, and the steering lines looked like a reasonable length, but I still ended up stalling my canopy with my toggles at my shoulders when I landed. On my video you see me initiate my flare, stall almost immediately, fall down, and mutter, "what the f%^&..." The PDR flew great, had a smooth flare, and set me down on my feet nicely. One of these days I'll have to get around to buying a PDR to put in my second rig to replace that Raven. On a side note, I've also watched a friend of mine land her Raven with one toggle a foot below the other to keep the thing flying straight. She also stalled it and fell down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 135 #49 November 15, 2006 QuoteMy reserve is a Techno155. Am I the only one on the forums jumping a Techno?I jumped my Techno 115 and my PD-143R Loved them both Had more time under the Techno though (deployed around 1500ft), easily steerable, precise, nice landing (could do with more flare though...) The PD I flew it for only 13seconds and landed with rear risers.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites superstu 0 #50 November 15, 2006 i've only had 2 reserve rides both on PD and i won't have any other reserve be my last line of defense. i've had a 143 opened sub-terminal and landed awesome, and i've had a 126 deployed terminal at a wingloading of 1.7 that already had 5 jumps on it and over 20 repacks, and that too landed perfect. i've also talked to chris hayes who still does some test jumping for PD but isn't full-time any more and after hearing him describe what they do to test their stuff i have no worries with any of their reserves, or mains for that matter. my vote is for PD...Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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Kris 0 #42 September 7, 2002 Quote Tempo 150 here. It's a nice bright neon international orange so you can see it for miles away. 0 jumps. QuoteI thought Tempos only came in white? True, Skreamer. The Tempo only comes in white. The orange he saw was probably the freebag for the reserve. The freebag on my old Talon was safety orange and was visible at the top corners of the rig if you pulled them back a bit to look. It makes it easier to find in the event of a cutaway. The freebag & PC on my Mirage G3 is white. I hope I don't have a cutaway on a snowy day. If you weren't thinking about the fact that you were looking at a freebag it would be easy to think that orange fabric belonged to your reserve. Kris Happy Tempo 210 ownerSky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #43 November 15, 2006 I was just doing some reading concerning certification and required testing and documentation of reserve canopies manufactured under TSO-C23d. I have been involved in manufacturing canopies for many years, but as many know I am now only involved with the mfr/distribution of main canopies. Anyway, as I was reading the documents for TSO approval, I came across a very interesting requirement that started me digging a little bit into just how "legal" certain reserve canopies may actually be... QuoteMaximum Operating Limits, General: Parachute assemblies, or components, may be certificated for any operating weight limit equal to or greater than 220 lb (100 kg), and for any pack opening airspeed equal to or greater than 150 KEAS (277.8 km/h). So, according to that statement, these tiny reserves on the market today MUST be certified to no less than 220 lbs, yet on some documentation I see maximum weights of far less than that number. It seems that PD and Aerodyne's canopies comply with the requirement, but looking at the Icarus reserve and the Precision R-Max, they show maximum weights for their smaller sizes less than the required 220 lbs. While PD and Aerodyne "recommend" maximum weights far less than 220 for their smaller canopies, they do actually state that the canopies have maximums that meet the TSO requirement. Now, I'm familiar with the argument that these lower weights are to keep these canopies in compliance with the canopy velocity/rate of decent limitations, but that argument is not valid; the way I interpret the requirements, these reserves must meet rate of decent and total velocity limits at no less than 220 lbs, not some arbitrary number the manufacturer assigns. QuoteRate of Descent Tests, All Types: There shall be not less than 6 drops, with an individual and/or dummy in each harness weighing not less than the maximum operating weight. The average rate of descent shall not exceed 24 ft/s, and the total velocity shall not exceed 36 ft/s, in an unaltered post deployment configuration, corrected to standard sea level altitude conditions. And the above TSO requirement brings me to my next point. I have my doubts about the ability of ANY these companies' smallest reserve canopies to meet the above criteria. Even though the documentation and required placards indicate that a PD and Aerodyne 99 are "legal" reserves, I cannot believe those canopies can have slow enough decent rate and total velocity at a suspended weight of 220 lbs. http://www.precision.aero/OrderForms/QGZ%20Order%20Form%20r-Max.pdf http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Reserve-Flight-Char-v3.pdf http://www.icaruscanopies.aero/canopies/Reserve/index.htm http://www.flyaerodyne.com/fly/products/smartSelector.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BKR 0 #44 November 15, 2006 Big hit and this is not the only one you could find out.Jérôme Bunker Basik Air Concept www.basik.fr http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #45 November 15, 2006 This is not true. For the smallest r-max (108) the max susp. weight is 220 lbs so within the minimum. However they recomend "expert" not to be more than 140 lns.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #46 November 15, 2006 Oh, forgot, all Icarus reserves have a max of 255 LBS.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #47 November 15, 2006 QuoteFor the smallest r-max (108) the max susp. weight is 220 lbs so within the minimum. However they recomend "expert" not to be more than 140 lns. I went to the Precision website and took my information from the only documents concerning the R-Max that I could find. Same thing with the Icarus website. If those canopies are certified to the required weights, they failed to document those facts on any of their web content. So if Icarus and Precision's reserves are all max'd at at least 220 lbs, I stand corrected. I stick by my second point, that I doubt if any of the small reserves can actually pass the requirements concerning rate of decent and total velocity, and people like Manley Butler would strongly agree with me on that. Edit: The attached documents were all I found on Icarus' and Precision's websites as far as specs of their reserve go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #48 November 15, 2006 Quotewell, i did forget to say, the ones that are loaded up, like at 1.3 or 1.4 and up, are the ones that stall really easly. I have two reserve rides, one on a Raven at about 1.2 and the second on a PDR at 1.4. On the Raven I popped my brakes and did a quick control check, and the steering lines looked like a reasonable length, but I still ended up stalling my canopy with my toggles at my shoulders when I landed. On my video you see me initiate my flare, stall almost immediately, fall down, and mutter, "what the f%^&..." The PDR flew great, had a smooth flare, and set me down on my feet nicely. One of these days I'll have to get around to buying a PDR to put in my second rig to replace that Raven. On a side note, I've also watched a friend of mine land her Raven with one toggle a foot below the other to keep the thing flying straight. She also stalled it and fell down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #49 November 15, 2006 QuoteMy reserve is a Techno155. Am I the only one on the forums jumping a Techno?I jumped my Techno 115 and my PD-143R Loved them both Had more time under the Techno though (deployed around 1500ft), easily steerable, precise, nice landing (could do with more flare though...) The PD I flew it for only 13seconds and landed with rear risers.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superstu 0 #50 November 15, 2006 i've only had 2 reserve rides both on PD and i won't have any other reserve be my last line of defense. i've had a 143 opened sub-terminal and landed awesome, and i've had a 126 deployed terminal at a wingloading of 1.7 that already had 5 jumps on it and over 20 repacks, and that too landed perfect. i've also talked to chris hayes who still does some test jumping for PD but isn't full-time any more and after hearing him describe what they do to test their stuff i have no worries with any of their reserves, or mains for that matter. my vote is for PD...Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
