Andy9o8 0 #26 June 28, 2012 QuoteSo what do you call someone who what's to make something so without any supporting evidence? A clergyman. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #27 June 28, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteNevermind, not worth the trouble. yep I'm not saying that off airport jumps shouldn't be taken more seriously or that the psychological issues didn't play a role here. Your earlier - and staunchly defended - stance was that this jump was no different than one at an unfamiliar established DZ. Now "off airport jumps" are different??? I think you're supposed to beep when you back up like that. No, now you are just twisting words. The above statement is not making a comparison. If it were it would read, "I'm not saying that off airport jumps or jumps at an unfamiliar DZ shouldn't be taken more seriously or that the psychological issues didn't play a role here. Is that better? I thought you intelligent enough not to stoop to make a point. I've given you a simple task if the supporting guidelines exist. Wow, are you bored?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #28 June 28, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteNevermind, not worth the trouble. yep I'm not saying that off airport jumps shouldn't be taken more seriously or that the psychological issues didn't play a role here. Your earlier - and staunchly defended - stance was that this jump was no different than one at an unfamiliar established DZ. Now "off airport jumps" are different??? I think you're supposed to beep when you back up like that. No, now you are just twisting words. The above statement is not making a comparison. If it were it would read, "I'm not saying that off airport jumps or jumps at an unfamiliar DZ shouldn't be taken more seriously or that the psychological issues didn't play a role here. Is that better? I thought you intelligent enough not to stoop to make a point. I've given you a simple task if the supporting guidelines exist. Wow, are you bored? I guess I could ask you the same thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #29 June 28, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteNevermind, not worth the trouble. yep I'm not saying that off airport jumps shouldn't be taken more seriously or that the psychological issues didn't play a role here. Your earlier - and staunchly defended - stance was that this jump was no different than one at an unfamiliar established DZ. Now "off airport jumps" are different??? I think you're supposed to beep when you back up like that. No, now you are just twisting words. The above statement is not making a comparison. If it were it would read, "I'm not saying that off airport jumps or jumps at an unfamiliar DZ shouldn't be taken more seriously or that the psychological issues didn't play a role here. Is that better? I thought you intelligent enough not to stoop to make a point. I've given you a simple task if the supporting guidelines exist. Wow, are you bored? I guess I could ask you the same thing. ........................................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #30 June 28, 2012 Quote Quote So what do you call someone who wants to make something so without any supporting evidence? A clergyman. A woman? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #31 June 28, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteNevermind, not worth the trouble. yep I'm not saying that off airport jumps shouldn't be taken more seriously or that the psychological issues didn't play a role here. Your earlier - and staunchly defended - stance was that this jump was no different than one at an unfamiliar established DZ. Now "off airport jumps" are different??? I think you're supposed to beep when you back up like that. No, now you are just twisting words. The above statement is not making a comparison. If it were it would read, "I'm not saying that off airport jumps or jumps at an unfamiliar DZ shouldn't be taken more seriously or that the psychological issues didn't play a role here. Is that better? I thought you intelligent enough not to stoop to make a point. I've given you a simple task if the supporting guidelines exist. Wow, are you bored? I guess I could ask you the same thing. ........................................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. So, can we take that as you have no intent on backing up your position or are you going to take a break and WOW us tomorrow? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #32 June 28, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteNevermind, not worth the trouble. yep I'm not saying that off airport jumps shouldn't be taken more seriously or that the psychological issues didn't play a role here. Your earlier - and staunchly defended - stance was that this jump was no different than one at an unfamiliar established DZ. Now "off airport jumps" are different??? I think you're supposed to beep when you back up like that. No, now you are just twisting words. The above statement is not making a comparison. If it were it would read, "I'm not saying that off airport jumps or jumps at an unfamiliar DZ shouldn't be taken more seriously or that the psychological issues didn't play a role here. Is that better? I thought you intelligent enough not to stoop to make a point. I've given you a simple task if the supporting guidelines exist. Wow, are you bored? I guess I could ask you the same thing. ........................................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. So, can we take that as you have no intent on backing up your position or are you going to take a break and WOW us tomorrow? You can take that as my having no intent of participating in your developing and eventual rant. Good Lord, man. Take a hit.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #33 June 28, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteNevermind, not worth the trouble. yep I'm not saying that off airport jumps shouldn't be taken more seriously or that the psychological issues didn't play a role here. Your earlier - and staunchly defended - stance was that this jump was no different than one at an unfamiliar established DZ. Now "off airport jumps" are different??? I think you're supposed to beep when you back up like that. No, now you are just twisting words. The above statement is not making a comparison. If it were it would read, "I'm not saying that off airport jumps or jumps at an unfamiliar DZ shouldn't be taken more seriously or that the psychological issues didn't play a role here. Is that better? I thought you intelligent enough not to stoop to make a point. I've given you a simple task if the supporting guidelines exist. Wow, are you bored? I guess I could ask you the same thing. ........................................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. So, can we take that as you have no intent on backing up your position or are you going to take a break and WOW us tomorrow? You can take that as my having no intent of participating in your developing and eventual rant. Good Lord, man. Take a hit. Nah man, I want you to enlighten me. I would have thought that you and Ron would have put together your superior knowledge by now and put me in my place. This is what you get when you're condescending and then don't prove your point. Step up to the plate or admit you a wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #34 June 28, 2012 Guys for what it is worth as an outsider you are largely arguing over the same thing. Chris clarified his position, but some of you are reading things into what he said that he didn't say. I think the general point is. When doing a jump 'off dz' the mental issues and challenges are the same or similar to a demo. But that does not make it a demo jump.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #35 June 28, 2012 Quote Guys for what it is worth as an outsider you are largely arguing over the same thing. Chris clarified his position, but some of you are reading things into what he said that he didn't say. I think the general point is. When doing a jump 'off dz' the mental issues and challenges are the same or similar to a demo. But that does not make it a demo jump. Yeah, we know. But we love to watch him fume over silly sh*t. He's been dragging that dead horse for a dozen posts now.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #36 June 28, 2012 Quote Quote Guys for what it is worth as an outsider you are largely arguing over the same thing. Chris clarified his position, but some of you are reading things into what he said that he didn't say. I think the general point is. When doing a jump 'off dz' the mental issues and challenges are the same or similar to a demo. But that does not make it a demo jump. Yeah, we know. But we love to watch him fume over silly sh*t. He's been dragging that dead horse for a dozen posts now. Well I'll just break out the popcorn and watch. Here's estion though. Saturday I am catching the ferry flight from 1 dz to another. I haven't jumped at the destination dz before. How does this fit the risk profile? If I jump from the ferry that is.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #37 June 28, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Guys for what it is worth as an outsider you are largely arguing over the same thing. Chris clarified his position, but some of you are reading things into what he said that he didn't say. I think the general point is. When doing a jump 'off dz' the mental issues and challenges are the same or similar to a demo. But that does not make it a demo jump. Yeah, we know. But we love to watch him fume over silly sh*t. He's been dragging that dead horse for a dozen posts now. Well I'll just break out the popcorn and watch. Here's estion though. Saturday I am catching the ferry flight from 1 dz to another. I haven't jumped at the destination dz before. How does this fit the risk profile? If I jump from the ferry that is. Always watch the horizon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEE2NFPDezMChuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #38 June 28, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Guys for what it is worth as an outsider you are largely arguing over the same thing. Chris clarified his position, but some of you are reading things into what he said that he didn't say. I think the general point is. When doing a jump 'off dz' the mental issues and challenges are the same or similar to a demo. But that does not make it a demo jump. Yeah, we know. But we love to watch him fume over silly sh*t. He's been dragging that dead horse for a dozen posts now. Well I'll just break out the popcorn and watch. Here's estion though. Saturday I am catching the ferry flight from 1 dz to another. I haven't jumped at the destination dz before. How does this fit the risk profile? If I jump from the ferry that is. Dude, that's a double extra special dangerous demo. You better get busy compiling your graphs,charts and 8x10 black and white photos and forward them to Chuck so he has time to make a determination and make a recommendation to the aviation authorities in your country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #39 June 28, 2012 Wow. He missed the mattress. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #40 June 28, 2012 QuoteYeah, we know. But we love to watch him fume over silly sh*t. Sly He's been dragging that dead horse for a dozen posts now. Yeah, you had nothing to do with dragging this out. I'm not fuming, I'm being entertained by someone who is wrong but can't bring themselves to man up and admit it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #41 June 28, 2012 Chris, Chuck - enough. This isn't speaker's corner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #42 June 28, 2012 >If I jump from the ferry that is. Interesting question. The first set of risks are the usual risks that come from jumping at any new DZ - new hazards, new windbreaks, new traffic patterns (aircraft and parachute) new telltales of bad weather coming in, new sightpicture etc. The second set of risks come from the somewhat unusual risks of not arriving at the DZ on foot. Which means you don't get to see it from the ground, you don't get a feel for where people land and where the plane loads, you don't get a briefing, you don't see the aerial picture, you don't talk to people on the ground beforehand etc. On all the demos we've done we've walked the area beforehand, because you can learn a lot more about the landing area from 5 feet than you can from 12,500. You won't know what the wind was before takeoff, so getting ATIS or the equivalent from the DZ is important. The third set come from the ferry flight itself. Ferry flights longer than about 20 minutes are unusual and people often do unusual things - take their rigs off for a while (or make themselves unusually comfortable by loosening things), stowing gloves, helmets etc so you can wear a headset (which now means it's possible to lose them.) Your gear can also do strange things, like altimeters resetting after they have been at 5000 feet for an hour. Pilot chutes are often exposed to more of the aircraft so the odds of partly extracted PC's, popped pin and riser covers and snags go up. If the flight is high you will be at much greater risk for hypoxia; you'll be more hypoxic after a ferry flight at 10,000 feet than you will be during a jump from 12,500. The fourth set come from being an unexpected arrival, which many ferry flights entail. You're going to appear over a DZ that's not expecting a load to drop. This generally isn't a problem as long as they know to expect you sometime (and do not do things like fly kites or let whuffos run their dogs around the DZ.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #43 June 28, 2012 Quote>If I jump from the ferry that is. Interesting question. The first set of risks are the usual risks that come from jumping at any new DZ - new hazards, new windbreaks, new traffic patterns (aircraft and parachute) new telltales of bad weather coming in, new sightpicture etc. The second set of risks come from the somewhat unusual risks of not arriving at the DZ on foot. Which means you don't get to see it from the ground, you don't get a feel for where people land and where the plane loads, you don't get a briefing, you don't see the aerial picture, you don't talk to people on the ground beforehand etc. On all the demos we've done we've walked the area beforehand, because you can learn a lot more about the landing area from 5 feet than you can from 12,500. You won't know what the wind was before takeoff, so getting ATIS or the equivalent from the DZ is important. The third set come from the ferry flight itself. Ferry flights longer than about 20 minutes are unusual and people often do unusual things - take their rigs off for a while (or make themselves unusually comfortable by loosening things), stowing gloves, helmets etc so you can wear a headset (which now means it's possible to lose them.) Your gear can also do strange things, like altimeters resetting after they have been at 5000 feet for an hour. Pilot chutes are often exposed to more of the aircraft so the odds of partly extracted PC's, popped pin and riser covers and snags go up. If the flight is high you will be at much greater risk for hypoxia; you'll be more hypoxic after a ferry flight at 10,000 feet than you will be during a jump from 12,500. The fourth set come from being an unexpected arrival, which many ferry flights entail. You're going to appear over a DZ that's not expecting a load to drop. This generally isn't a problem as long as they know to expect you sometime (and do not do things like fly kites or let whuffos run their dogs around the DZ.) There is also a risk involved with things like altimeter readings and AAD settings if there is a significant altitude difference between the two DZs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #44 June 28, 2012 Thanks Bill some interesting points. I knew about dz elevation differences but some other aspects I hadn't thought of. Pretty sure it will be a hop and pop. Dzo is only letting B licenses and above on the plane. Jumping is subject to how we stow the bagage. It looks like there will be 3 of us in a Navajo. It is tempting to jump as it is half the price of a jump ticket, but maybe I'll save jumping for the return leg on Sunday.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #45 June 28, 2012 Quote Thanks Bill some interesting points. I knew about dz elevation differences but some other aspects I hadn't thought of. Pretty sure it will be a hop and pop. Dzo is only letting B licenses and above on the plane. Jumping is subject to how we stow the baggage. It looks like there will be 3 of us in a Navajo. It is tempting to jump as it is half the price of a jump ticket, but maybe I'll save jumping for the return leg on Sunday. It's only Skydiving...what's the worse that could happen?! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #46 June 28, 2012 Quote Quote Thanks Bill some interesting points. I knew about dz elevation differences but some other aspects I hadn't thought of. Pretty sure it will be a hop and pop. Dzo is only letting B licenses and above on the plane. Jumping is subject to how we stow the baggage. It looks like there will be 3 of us in a Navajo. It is tempting to jump as it is half the price of a jump ticket, but maybe I'll save jumping for the return leg on Sunday. It's only Skydiving...what's the worse that could happen?! Being the only guy on plane, with a couple of hot chicks and then chickening out of the jump because it's a strange dz?Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #47 June 28, 2012 It's only Skydiving...what's the worse that could happen?! Being the only guy on plane, with a couple of hot chicks and then chickening out of the jump because it's a strange dz?Egos heal much faster than bones! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #48 June 28, 2012 Quote It's only Skydiving...what's the worse that could happen?! Being the only guy on plane, with a couple of hot chicks and then chickening out of the jump because it's a strange dz?Egos heal much faster than bones! Fuck that. Chicks did scar and Titanium. Go big, Nigel... Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #49 June 28, 2012 >It's only Skydiving...what's the worse that could happen? One of the scariest jumps I almost did: World Team 2004. Last day of the event. No record and it's pouring out. BJ has a plan: "OK so here's what we're going to do. We're going to load up, take off, fly an hour west to beat the storm, fly over this abandoned Vietnam-era airbase, drop everyone from 26,000+ feet, get the record, land, load up the planes, then fly back. The landing area is huge. It'll be fine*." Normally I think we would have been talked into such a plan, since to get on such records you have to be the kind of person who's willing to weather any adversity to get on the loads. But after a sketchy demo into downtown Bangkok that put a few people in the hospital there was a lot of apprehension over such schemes. Many people (me included) complained to team captains and organizers. Finally a compromise was reached - we would go there, land, check out the landing areas, have breakoff and landing briefings, dirt dive and then go up. This was still a bit sketchy, combining a new landing area with the pressure everyone was under, but we agreed to it. We went there, landed, discovered the big area that had an antenna that was really more like a field of five foot spikes, took off and got the record. And even had time to do one more jump before the weather (and night) came in. (* - because it wasn't a demo of course.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #50 June 28, 2012 Quote Quote It's only Skydiving...what's the worse that could happen?! Being the only guy on plane, with a couple of hot chicks and then chickening out of the jump because it's a strange dz? Egos heal much faster than bones! Fuck that. Chicks did scar and Titanium. Go big, Nigel... Unknown LZ's and Bimbos have something in common as far as jumping...when in doubt ~ Safer to Pull Out! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
