landmissle 2 #1 June 26, 2002 So I"ve got about 190 jumps now to my credit with about 90 of those under a Cobalt 150 loaded at 1.45. I'm wanting to take baby steps towards doing faster landing approaches. I've read and been told that the best way to do this is with straight in approaches with front risers. Actually to use the front risers on the downwind leg of the landing pattern to get used to there feel and effect and to eventually bring them into play further in the pattern (i.e., base leg and finally the final leg.). Obviously, the frontt riser use on the downleg and base won't affect the landing in the sense of speed, but this gradual approach will get one used to the speed and descent rate in a safe manner. My question is, would trying to master the art of rear riser landings also be a good idea. It seems it would for a couple of reasons; 1) Less likely to chop just because of a broken brake line. 2) Confidence building for recoveries in case the brake line should snap while doing a high speed approach. Does this idea seem valid? I was told to expect that less riser input would be necessary to plane out the canopy (as opposed to normal flaring.) and that not as much speed would be bled off. Is this a reasonable expectation? Any other comments or ideas on this subject? Feet up, heads down, blue skies, WWOD Landmissle ***PS Sorry guys, I just realized I posted this in the wrong forum!!!Feet up, heads down, blue skies WWOD? Landmissle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fred 0 #2 June 27, 2002 If I (as a newbie who's not even close to thinking about doing this) can add a question: How do you transition from rear risers to toggles? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #3 June 27, 2002 Quote2) Confidence building for recoveries in case the brake line should snap while doing a high speed approach. You might try some strait in rear riser landings in case you have a brake line snap on opening and you'd rather not chop it, but as far as high performance landings go, I wouldn't worry about rear risers for a long time. Especially for recoveries. You can't dig out of the corner with rear risers. Try it up high and you'll see why I say that. Plus, if you were already on toggles after doing some speed building maneuver (you'd have to be for a steering line to snap), it was already way too late to use rear risers. Rear riser stalls are quick, hard to predict, and even violent. They'll drop you on the ground before you even know what happened, and if that happens in the corner, you're in big trouble. How do you transition from rear risers to toggles? It takes lots and lots of practice. Everyone has thier own method, but I'll tell you this much: you should to do it in such a way that you'll be least likely to lose a toggle. But once again, that's a very advanced technique and probably isn't something you should be worried about. Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #4 June 27, 2002 Actually you can dig out of the corner with rear risers.. I practice it up high all the time. The stall speed on my crossfire2 is so low that I have plenty or rear riser control range to deal with. The response time is instantanous and I believe you could get out of the corner with rear risers if needed. Anyone disagree? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #5 June 27, 2002 Yes, I disagree. And please do me a favor and don't try to prove yourself correct. I've seen horrible things happen with botched rear riser landings. Let me clarify: you can shorten your recovery arc with rear risers, you can "trim" out your dive with rear risers, you can swoop in rear risers. But if you're in a position where you need to get out of the corner to save your ass, you should NEVER use the rear risers! I'm sure the Crossfire2 is a great canopy, but don't get overconfident. And keep in mind that the stall speed for rear risers is much higher. Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #6 June 27, 2002 Diging out of the corner with rear risers can lead to a high speed stall quite abruptly. Most canopies that I've jumped only allow for about 1-2 inches of play between a plane out and a stall. To plane it it only takes a small movement on the rear risers, less then 2 inches in my trials at altitude. Using the rear risers to get around the corner is like doing a toggle hook and can kill the flare on that side of the canopy if not done perfectly. Opps.... This is PhreeZoneSkydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #7 June 27, 2002 I have seen a person in Dallas loaded about 2.6 on a velocity atempt one during a swoop (luckily wind was blowing about 25mph). His canopy dissappeared behind him and he fell on his ass straight down (very little foward speed at the time). I play with them very high on my FX to plane out after a braked turn, but...I got no intentions of trying to land that way especially cross wind or downwind."Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #8 June 27, 2002 Actually you can dig out of the corner with rear risers. -------------- Uh, WHAAAA!?!?!?!? ---------------- I practice it up high all the time. ---------- Practicing up high is different than having the ground coming up at you and using it as reference. A difference of a couple of feet makes the difference on the ground...up high, it is not noticable. ------------------ The stall speed on my crossfire2 is so low that I have plenty or rear riser control range to deal with. ----------- The Crossfire does have a very low stall speed and is a very good canopy...it is not a miracle worker, though. ---------------- The response time is instantanous and I believe you could get out of the corner with rear risers if needed. ------------------ This is complete and utter bull$*%&. If you want to jump a canopy that everyone and their brother has recommended against, that is your decision. If you hurt yourself, it has been your own decision. You, now, though, are imposing your untruths onto others. What if someone read that post that you just made, doesn't see any EXPERIENCED responses to it, and goes out and tries to pull themselves out of a corner with rear risers??? Congratulations, now you're endangering other people. It is possible, in certain situations, to land on rear risers when you have not executed a perfect approach...what it takes is not being deep in the corner, and EXTREME precision, experience, skill, and early recognition of a mistake, so that you never reach the corner in the first place. IF it could be done, pulling yourself literally out of the corner with rear risers, it would take a whole lotta skill to do it, and if one has that skill to be able to pull it off, he/she would not ever reach the corner to the point where it would be a question. In a properly executed rear riser landing, you have already entered into the swoop without ANY input, and the swoop is prolonged by pressure applied to the rear risers. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #9 June 27, 2002 Everything should be practiced up high before even attempted down low.. Anyone with a BRAIN knows that.. Nothing I have said is BS.. And if you have jumped the crossfire2 you might have a fucking clue as to what I am talking about.. Apparently you don't.. That is your problem not mine.. I stop my canopy in the air with rear risers all the time without any ABRUPT stalling. Yes it is sensitive, yes it has to be done perfectly, yes you could fall on your ass if doing it wrong on landing but that is better than the alternative of 2 broken femurs. You or any other skydiver on this planet can take or leave what I am saying. What I am saying is something that I HAVE EXPERIENCED. Maybe you just can't do it and that upsets you? That I can understand. Learn to fly up high then steadily progress down inch by inch.. Only a FUCKING IDIOT would start doing maneuvers like hooks and rear risering down low without first practicing up high. Just because you can't do something doesn't mean it is bullshit.. And I agree, if one does his or her proper homework and sets up properly there should be no pulling out of the corner. That is a given. We were asked a question about being in the corner with a broken brake like and could a rear riser dig be successfull. I believe it can be done.. Sgt. Cowan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #10 June 27, 2002 Nothing I have said is BS. And if you have jumped the crossfire2 you might have a fucking clue as to what I am talking about. ----------------- You're right, I have no clue. I should go jump the Crossfire 2...oh, wait a second, I did. Icarus sent me one before they came out to see what I thought of it. ---------------- yes you could fall on your ass if doing it wrong ---------------- Falling on one's ass is the least of my concerns...people die doing just that...trying to pull themselves out of the corner or just plain improperly executing a rear riser landing. ------------------ What I am saying is something that I HAVE EXPERIENCED. ------------------ You have said yourself that you have not landed on rear risers, and have only practiced up high. Pulling yourself out of the corner with rear risers is not something that you have experienced, it is pure speculation. ------------------------- Maybe you just can't do it and that upsets you? That I can understand. Learn to fly up high then steadily progress down inch by inch. ---------------------- Hmmm...let's see...I have 1700 jumps, 1000 of which are on Crossfires, 750 of which are loaded at 1.8, do 270-540 degree approaches every time I jump. I jumped as many times this past weekend as you have total on your Crossfire2, have jumped as many times this year as you have in your life, and regularly land using my rear risers without incident. I don't claim to know everything, but when someone is looking for advice on landing a canopy with rear risers, who do you think they should listen to? ---------------------- Just because you can't do something doesn't mean it is bullshit.. ------------------ I can't do it because I don't have the skill to. What I am saying is that when I do have the skill to, I will not be in the corner in the first place. Moral of the story...if you are in the corner, you don't have the experience to pull yourself out of it using rear risers, if it can be done at all. The problem with practicing up high is that you may not have stalled the canopy, but you were not trying to pull yourself out of a situation that could cost you your life. As you see the earth rushing at you, you are going to pull harder and harder on the risers to try to stop your plummet...your last concern is going to be whether you stall the canopy or not. Yes, regardless of where you are in a turn, up high, you are going to feel yourself slowing down significantly, when playing with your rear risers...horizontal flight, though, is not judgeable up high to the nearest degree, and when it is done on the ground that is your margin of error, a degree. I, and other experienced people, can take or leave what you say...newbies don't necessarily know the difference between fact and fiction, and your willingness to impart your speculation that you think is knowledge to anyone and everyone is yet one more example of your inexperience. Steve_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sangiro 4 #11 June 27, 2002 QuoteAnd if you have jumped the crossfire2 you might have a fucking clue as to what I am talking about.. Find yourself a new attitude and then come back to my forums if you can find a way back in...Safe swoops Sangiro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #12 June 27, 2002 QuoteAnd if you have jumped the crossfire2 you might have a fucking clue as to . . . Rhino -- SBS is one of the finer canopy pilots I know. He doesn't get a lot of press like the Team Extreme guys, but he's more than qualified to speak on the subject of practical canopy control. He knows quite a bit about the Crossfire and Crossfire2. You may want to swallow your pride on this one and listen to what he has to say. Just a thought.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
landmissle 2 #13 June 27, 2002 Hi all, Thanks for all of the advice. It was not my intention for this post to devolve into a flame fest. I apologize for the fact that it has. I was simpley trying to glean information on a topic that I have little to no knowledge on. By viture of the fact that there is a wide spread opinion on this matter tells me already that this is something best not practiced by a newbie. Again thanks for all the input and hopefully we can all play nicely together. Feet up, heads down, blue skies WWOD? Landmissle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sangiro 4 #14 June 27, 2002 You don't have to apologize for anything. Your question was good and legitimate. You are not responsible for someone else's attitude problems. Rhino cannot post to this forum anymore. Feel free to keep on asking your questions in the future, I hope you continue to get some great replies from people with experience like Steve.Safe swoops Sangiro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #15 June 27, 2002 Attention: Do NOT be trying to save your ass by digging out of the corner with your rear risers! High speed stalls are a very common occurance on rear riser landings. I do not know a single person who rear risers who has not fell flat on their back while working on their technique. Coming around the corner is the LAST place you want to stall in that manner; believe me, and believe everyone else with any experience that is saying the same. I am about tired of some of the crap that inexperienced pilots are quoting in these forums lately. I am also tired of "parrots" and ass-kissers. While this is an open forum, it IS moderated, both by "greenies" and other very-experienced jumpers. I would ask that anyone searching for "the truth", disregard the rantings of some of our very-vocal intermediate jumpers and do searches on the boards for previous threads on the subject in question before forming your own educated opinion. Also, this thread does not belong in Gear and Rigging. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
landmissle 2 #16 June 27, 2002 >Also, this thread does not belong in Gear and Rigging. I understand, that's why I apologized for posting it here in my "P.S" in the original post. I didn't know how to delete it. My bad......Feet up, heads down, blue skies WWOD? Landmissle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #17 June 28, 2002 You have said yourself that you have not landed on rear risers, and have only practiced up high. Pulling yourself out of the corner with rear risers is not something that you have experienced, it is pure speculation. It is not speculation. I practice high specifically to get the feel for the canopy. I am in agreement with not getting in the corner to begin with, that is obvious. Again I don't speculate, I share my experiences. Rather then telling people they can't do things why don't you share yours?? And my apologies for flaming.. Not my intention at all.. I would be more interested in hearing your method of rear risering than telling me I am speculating. You are a great canopy pilot? Great!! Please share the wealth.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #18 June 28, 2002 >>Pulling yourself out of the corner with rear risers is not something >> that you have experienced, it is pure speculation. >It is not speculation. I practice high specifically to get the feel for the > canopy. While pulling high and playing with a canopy is a great way to get a feel for it, it is in no way a substitute for experience landing it. I've seen a great many people injured because they set up a perfect swoop, just five feet too low - and you can't tell "five feet too low" while in the air. There is a reason that the FAA has a currency requirement of three takeoffs and landings within 90 days, rather than three simulated takeoffs and landings - doing it up high on an 'imaginary' runway is in no way a substitute for the experience of bringing a 3000 pound airplane doing 60 miles an hour to almost zero vertical speed at exactly zero feet AGL at the slowest possible forward speed. We are no different; in fact, while we will probably never have to land that amount of weight under canopy, we are approaching the same speeds, and our landing gear is a _lot_ more fragile than a Cessna 182's. So it's great that you have experience with rear risers up high, but until you use them to actually pull yourself out of a corner that you could not have gotten out of with toggles, your ability to do it for real is speculation on your part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #19 June 28, 2002 I agree.. I won't be doing it low for several hundred more if not a thousand jumps. But it is fun up high. And the canopy APPEARS to have no problem whatsoever getting around the corner, even forcefully. That was my observation, and my opinion was it could be done. I didn't go telling everyone to get out and do it nor did I give advise on how to do it, I said it can be done... lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #20 June 28, 2002 billvon was very nice, as usual, in his reply to you, rhino. I wish you'd learn to listen to what he and all these other people with experience say. You obviously won't go that route. As for me, I just think you're a very aggressively dangerous, scary little man. And though I don't like your attitude, I do hope that you survive. But I personally wish you would've stayed gone from the forum, despite my amusement with your hard headedness. Lindsey-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #21 June 28, 2002 QuoteThat was my observation, and my opinion was it could be done. I didn't go telling everyone to get out and do it.. You said.... QuoteActually you can dig out of the corner with rear risers. If you're going to give advice and put out your opinions on things that can kill people, you need to understand that there are people out there who just might take what you say as being truth and go out there and do it. Those who don't know better may look at your statements and assume that you know what you are talking about because of what you fly. Their own fault for not finding out more about your experience level before listening to you? Yes. But even though you may never know that it was your words that caused "that guy" to try something that injured or killed him, imho you would be at least partially morally responsible for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #22 June 28, 2002 Fair enough.. TO ANYONE READING MY POSTS.. They are strictly informational and observations that I have experienced. I am neither giving suggestions nor making reccomendations as HOW TO. I state opinions the same as others and tend to AGREE with those I know and respect in skydiving. Yes I may be a bit aggressive but I am by no means dangerous. Not in the least.. While I said I believed the dig could be done I made it clear that I wouldn't be doing it myself for quiet some time. Anyways, when I post my 2cents from now on I'll be sure and clarify safety and "this is to only be done by professional swoopers down low". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #23 June 28, 2002 Why does this hole keep getting deeper? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SgtCowan 0 #24 July 3, 2002 Quicksand? A sharp Shovel?? Who knows.. lol Made 10 jumps this past weekend "up high" doing rear riser recoveries. Seemed to be fine coming around the corner.. Even after I was around the corner the canopy was solid but shortly after that recovery at least half the time their was a MASSIVE, high speed stall. Tricky stuff.. Not recommended Sgt. Cowan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
