UKFSChick 0 #26 July 8, 2012 QuoteHow much is the course? They teach students with well under 200 jumps how to shoot video and stills on tandems? You'd need to contact the school for pricing. www.nzskydivingschool.com. [email protected] The flying component of the course focuses on building the skills needed to shoot camera, such as shot composition, angles, timing, framing and so on. When they have reached the appropriate level of awareness and skill, students practice on each other. All the jumps are either supervised directly by the Course Director (full briefing/ dirt-diving and video debriefs) or the CD jumps with them. I understand that most of these students are using a helmet-mounted GoPro. Only those students with sufficient jumps and skills in accordance with NZ regs and as determined by the CD and approved by the TI will jump with an actual tandem. I understand the limit is 200 for NZPIA. @ Airtwardo: QuoteSo if I understand this correctly, the 'student' is basically paying someone so they can 'work' for them...or in some cases the government is paying. As a business operator wouldn't it be somewhat more beneficial to the bottom line to keep a steady stream of 'interns' paying me for work experience than it would to have actual employees? Sly Interesting business model. The course fees are paid to the School which delivers the Diploma Course (NZSS). The school is in liaison with various DZs worldwide who provide placements for students. It works well for the placement DZs as they have an extra pair of hands on deck. In exchange they provide 30 jumps, exposure to various aspects of DZ operations, supervision and quite possibly a path to employment. They don't receive payment, but provide an opportunity to learn, as is common for interns in most lines of work. I can see why you would ask about the business model...lol..however do bear in mind this is not the same experience you'd have as a DZ bum hanging around a dropzone, packing a few rigs and picking up a free jump here and there. They have formal course modules to complete, and their training on the prior 20 weeks of the course prepares them to be very proactive and involved at every level. The path to a paid flying slot (usually camera) is very real for these graduates, although variables include the individual's attitude and the opportunities available at that specific DZ. Do also bear in mind that there is a very limited sport scene in NZ, so hanging around a tandem operation waiting for an 'in' is not really an option. A lot of this comes down to how you feel about education and training. Some people will choose to do a course in computer programming; others will tinker around writing code at home and learning as they go. Some will do a tunnel camp, others will buy time here and there picking up coaching from whomever is happy to provide it for free. Some people do a BA in journalism, others write a freelance piece here and there and try to talk their way into a gopher slot on their local paper. This is a formal course of study, the only difference is, it happens to be in commercial skydiving, a field which for many people is also a sport/ hobby. If you believe in the value of education and training this is a solid course which, when delivered correctly, provides a very broad basis for people wishing to work in skydiving as a career. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #27 July 9, 2012 If you believe in the value of education and training this is a solid course which, when delivered correctly, provides a very broad basis for people wishing to work in skydiving as a career. Quote I'm certainly all for structured training and the professional competence that usually goes along with it. And you've more clearly explained the process of the program to me illustrating it's value...but I still think it's an interesting business model regarding the activity. Only goes to prove my point that it's more & more a business than a sport. Not saying that's a bad thing necessarily, it is what it is. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKFSChick 0 #28 July 9, 2012 Quote Only goes to prove my point that it's more & more a business than a sport. Not saying that's a bad thing necessarily, it is what it is. I know what you mean. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch01 0 #29 July 9, 2012 I've been following this thread lately and would like to quash some of the misconception out there. I was on the January Course also and thanks mainly to the direction of the new Chief Instructor am in my dream situation and happy vouch for the course Firstly the course is not pretending to be a 'sign up and wait for your camera slot and Tandem rating' sort of programme. For people with the right attitude and work ethic it absolutely wholeheartedly is a fastrack into the industry. You can claim that 'hanging at your local dz' amounts to the same but I personally went from 6 months ago having never skydived in my life to now filming and photographing tandems with only 150 jumps. Saying you can achieve the same result by being your local dzs bitch and waiting for an 'in' is a crock of shit, in New Zealand at least. That doesnt mean to say im not still doing all the bitch jobs also, but im doing so with a big smile on my face because the work is already paying off :) Also wondering why everyone is treating the idea of unpaid internship as some sinister new scam!?! Im not sure how it works in the States but I know here nurses have to have a year of unpaid sponge bathing saggy balls for an internship before starting to get paid for the pleasure, work placement is not a new concept everyone! Finally I'm not defending the what the school has been in the past by any means but can genuinely say Im in my absolute ideal situation right now which simply wouldn't have been possible without the school. Ask yourself, why would so many students be so ardently defending it if it was anything short of fucking awesome Lurchy McLurch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koppel 3 #30 July 9, 2012 Quote Only goes to prove my point that it's more & more a business than a sport. Not saying that's a bad thing necessarily, it is what it is. indeed in some parts of the world it is indeed a fully fledged industry now. Sadly for most of that industry they have yet to wake up to the responsibilities of being a genuine industry and the ethical and legal obligations that come with it towards your staff and your customers.I like my canopy... ...it lets me down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #31 July 9, 2012 Ask yourself, why would so many students be so ardently defending it if it was anything short of fucking awesome. Quote You answered your own question so to speak...it's because they're 'students' involved in the program. Everyone tends to defend the decisions they make and the path they're on. As far as viewing the 'idea of unpaid internship as some sinister new scam' ...I for one anyway, do most certainly realize internships are a part of many career paths. I've also been in the business world long enough to know that in a lot of case it kinda IS a 'sinister scam'. Anytime you are providing a service that has value for free, you're getting fucked...especially in circumstances in which someone else is making a profit from your effort$. Yeah it's done all the time, doesn't make it right. On the other hand, as was so articulately explained to me by the poster above, having it as an actual part of the course work curriculum does make some sense. However that to me falls more under 'working your way through school' than it does an unpaid internship. The types of 'internships' I've seen in the professional world come most often at or near the end of the educational process. In quite a few, the candidate has the degree in hand and is merely seeking real world experience in order to sharpen up the corners and show they have the skills. The whole internship thing is really quite a monster in some areas of endeavor and is becoming an even larger one as the world economy goes south and the job markets are becoming more & more flooded with qualified workers. I know qualified lawyers and accountants in Italy that have been 'interning' for several years...basically doing the jobs their paid counterparts are doing for free on the 'hope' they will eventually be 'allowed' to MAKE that career an actual JOB. I have a friend there who is 26 and has been working as an attorney at a Milan law firm for over 3 years free. In fact he also works at night as a waiter so he can afford to GO to work in his chosen field, still lives with his parents...HAS to. His biggest fear is losing that internship to one of the hundreds of others trying for it and maybe never getting the paying type position he's overly qualified to do, thus still paying off school loans at an age when his saggy balls are getting daily sponge baths and dinner comes in a bowl with a spoon. I understand the desire to enter the Skydiving business world already on your feet and running. That's a commendable choice, however what I guess I'm skeptical about is the practical advantages in the big picture - long term. From what it sounds like, the business 'down under' where you're at is a booming industry that needs qualified professionals. The school we're discussing is taking advantage of that and is basically a factory producing machines to fill a need. That's all good, until you step back a bit and look at the big picture. Describe Skydiving in whatever term you like - business or sport, it's in truth a leisure activity. It's the type of thing no one HAS to do so it's an extremely limited market...even more so if the economy takes a downturn. Being a limited and finite market, there is a point in which the employment positions available will be filled and the over-saturation of qualified people will quite possibly force a situation that limits income opportunity for everyone. It's simple supply & demand. Ask yourself how many TM's will be needed in the NZ dropzone world to fill the need...50? 100?? What then...especially if you're number 105 in that job market, eventually someone HAS to be. What 'exactly' is the return on investment regarding this curriculum. How much time and money will you put in before the 'schooling costs' are paid off and you're economically self sufficient, you know - able to put money in the bank, maybe buy a house and raise a family etc. That's where my skepticism centers. I know people that did it the other way around, went to school and got a 'real' paying job right out the gate, spent their money as it came in to make jumps and gain experience the old fashioned way. They now have the ratings and the reputation to step into a full time professional DZ gig and have a fall back education if they get burned out, hurt or whatever. You're making a gamble putting all your eggs in one basket so to speak. One has to wonder if taking that 7000 or whatever $ and pitching a tent at Eloy for 6 months, jumping your ass off every day while bein' a DZ bitch wouldn't actually be a faster track toward the goal...I truly don't know. Just for the sake of discussion, explain to me how it is that after 6 months and 150 jumps in the sport...doing some camera jumps is 'already paying off'. Either camera jumps at your DZ pay a whole lot more than here, or you haven't factored in the cost of your skydiving rig, jumpsuit & cameras. Anyway...best of luck to you, I sincerely hope your skydiving career turns out to be successful both personally and financially, as mine has been. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #32 July 9, 2012 Quote Quote Only goes to prove my point that it's more & more a business than a sport. Not saying that's a bad thing necessarily, it is what it is. indeed in some parts of the world it is indeed a fully fledged industry now. Sadly for most of that industry they have yet to wake up to the responsibilities of being a genuine industry and the ethical and legal obligations that come with it towards your staff and your customers. It's a weird time for sure... That's why I question the economic logic of attending what's basically a trade school in order to get a shot at a position that offers little security, no benefits, questionable income opportunity long term in regard to depending entirely on other peoples expendable income for a leisure activity. But hey who knows...it could work, I mean what's the worse that could happen? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKFSChick 0 #33 July 10, 2012 Quote I question the economic logic of attending what's basically a trade school in order to get a shot at a position that offers little security, no benefits, questionable income opportunity long term in regard to depending entirely on other peoples expendable income for a leisure activity. Many parts of the world do have state healthcare provided so the 'benefits' point is a little moot. In NZ it is not uncommon for course graduates doing camera to earn NZ$22k - $55k per year. A tandem master could earn from NZ$35k - NZ$90k, and manifestors are on around $15 per hour. Packers get $10 - $12 per pack job, which at a busy DZ is a solid income enabling you to save, buy a home, invest, if you want to. Also, much of the time these jobs are formal positions of employment, subject to the usual rules, protections and regulations. This is before you start to consider the other doors that start to open when you're doing 500 jumps a season. For students who may have no other formal qualification, no college, and no real desire for office-based employment, these are very good opportunities. As far as the uncertainty of the market goes, NZ does more tandems than any other country in the world apart from the US. Population 4m vs 300m. Adventure tourism is actually a growing sector, and the very existence of this course is a result of that. But I think what it really comes down to is that a skydiving career is a lifestyle choice. Not everyone is cut out for the Matrix, and no amount of 'job security' is going to change that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #34 July 10, 2012 As far as the uncertainty of the market goes, NZ does more tandems than any other country in the world apart from the US. Population 4m vs 300m. Adventure tourism is actually a growing sector, and the very existence of this course is a result of that. Quote Ok..ya convinced me ~ I'm movin' down! ~ and yes, 'taking up a skydiving career is a lifestyle choice'...it can be be a pretty interesting one, even more so if ya figure out a way to do it off the DZ and work for yourself! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
talon2 0 #35 July 10, 2012 Keep it real, less than 0.80 cents in the dollar course quality CI dependant. Topic raises more questions than it answers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
5.samadhi 0 #36 July 10, 2012 airtwardo, did you skip the part where she said the jumps are LESS than normal price for NZ citizens? That would be badass if we were 18 and could get CHEAP jumps and all we'd have to do is drive a bus a few hours AT SOME POINT. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKFSChick 0 #37 July 10, 2012 Quoteairtwardo, did you skip the part where she said the jumps are LESS than normal price for NZ citizens? That would be badass if we were 18 and could get CHEAP jumps and all we'd have to do is drive a bus a few hours AT SOME POINT. Aussies too, as I understand it. Also there is some sort of living allowance the NZ Government gives to Kiwi permanent residents while on the course. Not sure of details on that but it's around $165 a week. You don't have to pay it back. In addition, all the jumps at the school are supervised directly by the current Course Director, and/or he jumps with the students. When you consider the cost of even the most basic coaching, that is a big bonus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #38 July 10, 2012 Quote by the current Course Director http://onthelineskydiving.com/ What a hack! So what do you do? Tea and cucumber sandwiches? Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKFSChick 0 #39 July 10, 2012 amongst other things Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
5.samadhi 0 #40 July 11, 2012 Quote Quote airtwardo, did you skip the part where she said the jumps are LESS than normal price for NZ citizens? That would be badass if we were 18 and could get CHEAP jumps and all we'd have to do is drive a bus a few hours AT SOME POINT. Aussies too, as I understand it. Also there is some sort of living allowance the NZ Government gives to Kiwi permanent residents while on the course. Not sure of details on that but it's around $165 a week. You don't have to pay it back. In addition, all the jumps at the school are supervised directly by the current Course Director, and/or he jumps with the students. When you consider the cost of even the most basic coaching, that is a big bonus. I'd like to register as a new zealand citizen now haha I went to school here in the USA and all I have are three degrees hanging on my parent's wall and 50k in debt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
strop45 0 #41 July 11, 2012 QuoteAlso there is some sort of living allowance the NZ Government gives to Kiwi permanent residents while on the course. Not sure of details on that but it's around $165 a week. You don't have to pay it back. That's not 100% correct. The student allowance only applies to those people under 25 whose parents total income is less than $100,000 NZ. The amount of the allowance depends on parents income, how far away from the course they live, whether they live together etc.. Aussies need to live in NZ for two years before they can claim this allowance. Most students end up with substantial student loans to finance course costs.The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch01 0 #43 July 16, 2012 Actually it may hav changed recently but its currently 169 p/w they put on your student loan if under 25 (so you have to pay it back) But 220 p/w FREE if over 25, no shit-free, I know because Im under 25 getting the 160 and my roomate on course was 26 and getting the free 220 a week! Cheers Mr Key Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
uberchris 0 #44 July 16, 2012 Quote One has to wonder if taking that 7000 or whatever $ and pitching a tent at Eloy for 6 months, jumping your ass off every day while bein' a DZ bitch wouldn't actually be a faster track toward the goal...I truly don't know. Just for the sake of discussion, explain to me how it is that after 6 months and 150 jumps in the sport...doing some camera jumps is 'already paying off'. Either camera jumps at your DZ pay a whole lot more than here, or you haven't factored in the cost of your skydiving rig, jumpsuit & cameras. Anyway...best of luck to you, I sincerely hope your skydiving career turns out to be successful both personally and financially, as mine has been. at least hanging out the old fashioned way, working your way up to a tandem instructor, youll know after some time wether or not youre still enjoying the business. the problem i had with wasting 50k on culinary school, was that the fire burnt for about 2 years, real bright, and then i finally realized how much i fucking hate the cooking industry. had i hung out and worked in some restaurants for a while, and learned what i was getting into as a job, i would have NEVER commited to a 50k dollar culinary program.......... i am trying to slowly work my way up to get my TI ratings, and so far, i am still enjoying every aspect of the sport. i hope that never changesgravity brings me down......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
