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bigbearfng

Is swooping pushing the envelope?

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Just wanting to get a handle on how most folk see things when it comes to swooping.
Seems it's commonly accepted that wingsuiting/freeflying/camera all increase risks, however they don't rise to the level of "pushing the envelope".
Also I'm sure that most everyone agrees that Jeb's "threading the crack" for example is absolutely pushing the envelope as is BASE.
So what about swooping?

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I voted yes (not a swooper) but I guess I'm wondering what we're trying to prove here. All of the things you cited add risk, but the risk can be managed and mitigated in a variety of ways in all those examples, or you can go straight to the edge of the envelope, and lots of variations in between.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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Define "pushing the envelope".



Which is what I'd like to know.......at least what most folks perception of it is when it comes to swooping.
Do you agree "threading the crack" is pushing the envelope?

Seems changes are in the wind.........and I figure the general perception of swooping in the skydiving community is going to play a big part in which way it may go.

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Do you agree "threading the crack" is pushing the envelope?



Yes I do because it is really pushing the boundaries of what is possible.

Swooping on the other hand is an established part of the sport with official competitions. As such I don't think swooping is pushing the envelope per se.

It's just some of the muppets that try to do it that are pushing their own personal envelopes.

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Swooping was pushing the envelope when The boys were swooping the ditch with their PD 170s.
Swooping was pushing the envelope when the first blindman was executed.
Swooping is pushing the envelope as the competitive athletes try new planforms and higher wingloadings.
Is swooping pushing the envelope when I pull a 270 loaded at 1.95:1? Not so much.
Can it still get me dead? Yup.

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Swooping was pushing the envelope when ...



Swooping by it's very nature, is the act of pushing the envelope. Good grief swoopers are purposely trying to induce as much speed as they can (hopefully within their limits). Having inexperienced or uncurrent people die because they were pushing the envelope is NOT good. The margin for errors in swooping is slime to nil. But even the best know the risks and could fall prey to the risks if there is an ounce of complacency.

As Ian says "Define Swooping" because large BASE canopies can be swooped just as small pocket rocket canopies are swooped. And of course not all swoopers are created equal. There is a big difference between the best swoopers in the world and the other swoopers who have the skill to compete against the best, but do not have what it takes to win competitions. Then of course there is a big difference between the competition level swooper and the beer line swooper and of course a big difference between the beer line swoopers and the wannabees.

Most of us can agree (I thought we came to this conclusion several years ago) that swoopers must be segregated by everyone else by time or space (or better yet both time and space). But there seems to be a mentality by some to want to "Ban Swooping". You know you are a swooper (this usually applies to the competition level swooper) when all you want to do, is swoop. Non-swoopers can not understand this need swoopers have to swoop.

"Define Swooping" ... I was only starting to learn how to do freestyle on the pond when I stopped being current as a swooper and thus had to hang up any ambitions I had towards competing against the best. But I always loved watching the best, skim across the pond, take their shoe off, show the shoe to the crowd, put their shoe back on and proceeded to land their canopies on the dry side of the pond. If swooping is ever banned, it will be a sad day for the evolution of skydiving. None of us gets out of here alive.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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So what about swooping?



Swooping is very dangerous when an inexperienced canopy pilot. Swooping is definitely something you want to learn to do in stages and monitored by a professional. I'd rather swoop my X-Fire2 than do CREW, RW, or any other discipline.
-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

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no way is it pushing it, the problem is there is no progressive steps or regulation. If you dont hold a pro card you shouldnt be allowed to swoop!! Go get proper training and prove you can saftely swoop and fly a canopy. most people can't even fly a canopy properly, the most important aspect of this sport. swooping is not for everyone!!!

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It entirely depends who's doing it. Most of the muppets dying are the copycats, so they are not redefining the envelope. They might be pushing their OWN skills envelope but are not redefining the boundaries at all.

Jay, Nick, JC, Clint, they are all the types that were redefining the edge.

Jeb on the other hand IS one of the handful redefining the envelope in his chosen discipline.

The muppets in the wingsuit forum that have continual cock measuring contests are not.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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no way is it pushing it, the problem is there is no progressive steps



There are plenty of progressive steps.

Canopies are generally sold in 10-20 square foot size increments (with a few vendors willing to make in-between sizes) and several degrees of responsiveness to control input and tendency to dive.

Any size of diving front riser turn is possible starting at 0 degrees with flatter turns before or after allowing curved speed inducing maneuvers that aren't multiples of 90 degrees to fit into a standard landing pattern.

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Most of the swoopers I've ever heard, or read in print, say right up front that it's pushing the envelope. Coming in that close, that fast, is pushing the envelope by definition. They say everyone who learns to swoop will crash sometime and even some of the very best can be hurt or killed on any given jump. That's pushing the envelope - and not a criticism.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

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They might be pushing their OWN skills envelope


I voted for pushing the envelope, abiet personal envelope if you don't in any dicipline/sport it's akin to saying i will never improve i will stagnate.
It's the way an individual goes about 'pushing the envelope' that makes the difference i.e blindly or with education and a step at a time (slowly,slowly catchy monkey)
.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

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Any size of diving front riser turn is possible starting at 0 degrees with flatter turns before or after allowing curved speed inducing maneuvers that aren't multiples of 90 degrees to fit into a standard landing pattern.



There is only one size of turn that fits into a standard landing pattern. Hence the name.

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Define envelope.

I guess I'm being a smart-ass. But it's like asking, "Is skydiving dangerous?" Yes. Well, no. Well, sort of. Well, it is, but it's OK if the risk is managed. Of course, one person's risk is another person's fun. Etc., etc.

No offense, but the thread is really mostly about definitions. I never really found these "definitions" discussions about skydiving to be all that illuminating. Post #2 was a good ending point.

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no way is it pushing it, the problem is there is no progressive steps or regulation. If you dont hold a pro card you shouldnt be allowed to swoop!! Go get proper training and prove you can saftely swoop and fly a canopy. most people can't even fly a canopy properly, the most important aspect of this sport. swooping is not for everyone!!!



There certainly is a progression. Mine was Raven, Excalibur, Monarch, smaller Monarch, Nova, Stiletto, Velocity. Every swooper has a progression. It's just that some progress too quickly.

As for regulation, what exactly do you want to regulate? Wing loading? Degrees of performance turns? In case you haven't noticed, many of the swoop incidents involve highly experienced pilots with many thousands of jumps - folks that would easily qualify for any regulation that would be instituted.

I think you misunderstand what the pro program is about. Receiving pro training and getting a pro card has nothing to do with swooping.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Define envelope.



Define definition.:P




Define 'The'...:)


I gotta agree, it's not pushing THE envelope as far as the sport is concerned...the path however bloody has been forged. But one may be pushing 'their' envelope by swooping...heck some are pushing it packing their own parachute! :ph34r:










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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It depends on:
1 Who
2. Equipment used
3. Maneuver used.

Me on a velo 96 doing a 270. That's not pushing it.
Me on an FX69 was pushing it.
Some guy with 100 jumps on a stiletto doing a 180 is pushing it.
Some guy with 100 jumps on a velo is pushing it even if he flies a straight in approach.

Which is not to say that me doing a 180 on a stiletto is 'conservative' there is nothing conservative about turning low to increase speed.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I think you misunderstand what the pro program is about. Receiving pro training and getting a pro card has nothing to do with swooping.



Chuck, I can understand the idea even though they are two different ways of flying the parachute. I think the idea of getting the PRO rating would slow down the progression in trying to be a swooper in that you would have to have the PRO required 500 jumps and show you have an understanding of canopy control for the 10 declared accuracy landings. If a jumper doesn't have the discipline to get the PRO card, they most likely will end up being the current type of swooper that fills these incedent reports.

And since wingsuiters are getting bashed for some reason about our current attempts of pushing the envelope, we have the same battle of newer birds progressing too fast to the big flying carpets without putting the time in the smaller suits to gain the required skils. Different shape of wing, but same problem.

It shows that we have a common problen that when we can't self regulate by peer pressure/guidelines/mentoring, regulations end up being the only stick that is effective in beating back the overaggresive noobs that want to push the envelope, be it only their own personal one.
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I think you misunderstand what the pro program is about. Receiving pro training and getting a pro card has nothing to do with swooping.



Chuck, I can understand the idea even though they are two different ways of flying the parachute. I think the idea of getting the PRO rating would slow down the progression in trying to be a swooper in that you would have to have the PRO required 500 jumps and show you have an understanding of canopy control for the 10 declared accuracy landings. If a jumper doesn't have the discipline to get the PRO card, they most likely will end up being the current type of swooper that fills these incedent reports.

And since wingsuiters are getting bashed for some reason about our current attempts of pushing the envelope, we have the same battle of newer birds progressing too fast to the big flying carpets without putting the time in the smaller suits to gain the required skils. Different shape of wing, but same problem.

It shows that we have a common problen that when we can't self regulate by peer pressure/guidelines/mentoring, regulations end up being the only stick that is effective in beating back the overaggresive noobs that want to push the envelope, be it only their own personal one.



Essentially you're saying the same thing many others have said - that we need a developed program for progression. I don't completely disagree with the concept, but I don't think there would be a lot of support for making it mandatory. Remember, even a pro rating isn't necessary to perform pro level demos. There is an option for going around it.

Besides, many swoop accidents involve people who are very well qualified and highly experienced. People progressing too rapidly is only part of the overall swoop accident problem.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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