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freeflir29

Heatwave Pilots?

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I figure I'm too young to die.


But in reality nobody is too young to die. We are all going to go sometime. Most of us, including Clay, will do everything possible to stay alive. However, I believe it falls back to the question of why do we skydive? We take chances everyday. Clay has decided he wants to explore the high performance arena and that is his decision. His fellow instructors at his dz believe he is capable so I believe it is his time to explore. I bet if you ask any swoop competitor if they were nervous about experimenting with these canopies they will tell you yes. No matter how many jumps they had on their current canopy.
Clay, explore carefully. I know "if" you fail while daring greatly you will have the confidence to supply us with your learnings. However I believe what SkyCat said...you will be asking about the X Braced Canopies within the year!
Avoid many...
Kachink,
ChromeBoy
-Mirage G3 Unisyn-

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I know "if" you fail while daring greatly you will have the confidence to supply us with your learnings


Yes I will....Actually it's much more the opening I think that makes me nervous. People always talk about how sensitive they are. Hell...I hardly even pay attention to my PD 190 opening. It's so predictable it's insane. Damn good camera canopy!!!
I'll do a high H&P on my first jump with it. With ZP it shouldn't be hard to land straight in and I should have quite the handle on it after 10,000 ft of practice flares and turns. I WON'T be wearing my new jumpsuit.......just in case....:)
"I only have a C license, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

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Mr C license :D
I've gotten to this thread fairly late but can maybe help a little with this. I moved from a 170 Sabre to a 150 Heatwave earlier this year. I'm loading it at about 1.4 and have done about 60 jumps on it. The 20 ft^2 difference IS a fair amount. The main things I noticed when trying the new canopy:
* leaning in harness turns the canopy.
* Not having a symetrical body position on opening turns the canopy.
* When letting the toggle up after a turn doesn't stop the turn. The recovery arc is long.
* Flying the canopy requires a LOT more concentration than the 170 Sabre (not that the sabre didn't...)
* The landings are quite a lot faster.
These are all compared to a 170 Sabre which will be much zippier than the PD you are on at the moment. I love the Heatwave and am very happy that I bought it - especially when you consider the price. Packing is simple with the non-slippy ZP fabric. The colour coded line tapes make packing even more of a doddle.
How many jumps do you have now Clay? I'm sure you'll end up jumping whatever the S&TA at your DZ deems fit for you, so I'm not going to have an opinion either way. Just be VERY careful and aware that the ride will be *TOTALLY* different to what you are used to. You'll get down from your first jump and say "Damn, that's a twitchy sucker!!". I know I did. Fun. Could kill you. Be careful and be informed.
If you wanna talk some more, send me a PM.
B.

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I'm jumping Heatwave-120 with moderate(hope so) loading 1.56. But max size sewn on label says that I'm overloading my canopy.
Well, the most interesting thing that I knew from this canopy, that it very oversteering. 90 turn followed by another 90 oversteer (if not pumping opposite toggle). 180 turn - another 180 oversteer. 360 Front riser turn - wow another 90 oversteer turn. May be I have special canopy, but this thing need to be noticed.

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I don't know, maybe it's just me being conservative (although I didn't think that was ever possible), but I recently started considering downsizing one size with my new canopy purchase. To help with the decision I borrowed a friends Sabre2 150. I had been jumping a sabre 170 for the past 100 jumps. I'm 225 out the door. I didn't really think it was going to be a big deal since the sabre2 is only semi-eliptical or whatever you want to call it. Plus, what difference can 20 square feet really make anyway, right! So I put like 5 or 6 jumps on it without incident and was loving the added performance in the turns and stuff. The flare was fun and I felt very confident that this was something I was ready for. Until... my last jump of the day.
Normal skydive until deployment. While my canopy was just about done opening, one of my toggles came unstowed and got stuck in between the riser and the slider grommet so well that I wasn't able to pull it out. Now, I didn't really think anythin of it until that crazy ass spin started! For a second I couldn't believe what was happening. I mean, it was just a simple toggle problem right?! Well, the smaller canopy and tapered design produced a spin that I couldn't reproduce under my sabre 170 if I buried it for 5000 feet straight! I was seriously almost horizontal and starting to worry... I ended up pulling down the other toggle and stableizing it until I could work the stuck toggle free and I landed fine. My point is this: Everything worked out fine...this time cause the circumstances allowed time for it. But don't think for one second that those little changes (only 20 square feet, eliptical design, and zp fabric) cannot add up to a tragedy! The speed at which all this took place scared me enough to make me seriously reconsider my decision. I can't imagine how different that situation could've been had I introduced another variable into the situation...? (or maybe like going from an f-111 canopy to a smaller, zp, eliptical one)I think that's what everyone with years of experience is trying to say here big guy. It's not the skydive's where everything goes perfectly that you have to worry about. It's the one's where the unexpected things come into play and really exploit those little things that you need to be worried about... The "little" things become "big" things the smaller and faster you go... In the end, it's your decision to make. Just make sure you're honest with yourself about what you're willing to risk for a little more speed...
"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

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I jump a 170 Heatwave (and a 136 Jedi) and I tend to agree with a lot of the postings that many of the others have written regarding downsizing too quickly. Ellipticals are less forgiving on opening and one has to get used to the oversteer. However, I find them a lot easier to land because of their glide characteristics in a partial flare. I jump a wingsuit, so I expect to take only one step on touchdown. There is a compromise to your dilemma - get a Heatwave 190. You'll get more performance, a smaller packjob, learn to fly an elliptical, have better landings and won't be downsizing radically.

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Clay, I think that you will do fine under a 170. But who am I to say...everyone chastized me for my canopy decisions...until they saw me fly. Being a student pilot and an all-around smart guy, you understand how a wing flies. Plus, at SA you have the advantage of getting your landing videotaped on every jump (thanks Tim) and getting advice from doug, trey, and woody. Just stay current and listen to what people tell you when you get your canopy. And stay current!
michael hunt (yes, that is my real name...and i've heard them all)

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seems like if anything it will give me more control and more flare to work with.

Just a thought, the above could also be interpreted to mean it can also give you more loss of control as well, and do it really fast and close to the ground. Just offering a different perspective.
alan

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I think I would have to agree with chromeboy...nobody knows your flying abilities but the people you fly with; the advice from your *informed* instructors should be good advice.
However, my personal recommendation would be not to make all three changes at once (F-111=>ZP,190=>170,Square=>elliptical). I would say maybe make two changes (only if you want more performance, obviously). Go with a ZP 190 elliptical, or a ZP 170 square. At the wingloadings you are talking about, any one of the changes you want to make will cause a performance change. It may very well be true that you can handle the Heatwave 170, but it may also be true you can't. Go slow. The fast mains will wait.
I bought my heatwave 170 in a simialar situation...my previous main was a monarch 215. However, I borrowed and jumped a triathlon 190 and a sabre 170 for about 40 jumps before I went to the heatwave. This gave me the opportunity to step down a little bit. I also wasn't loading the heatwave quite as much as you will be.
Oh, and don't kid yourself, dude. Going from a 190 to a 170 is still downsizing. It WILL make a difference.
It will give you more control and flare to work with, making it 'easier' to land, but ONLY if you use it correctly.
Ultimately, it's all academic whether or not you can handle it...the proof, unfortunately, is in the pudding. One thing we can all agree on, I'm sure, is that making the transition from an F-111 190 to a heatwave 170 can be a big step, so be careful, OK? :)

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Clay,
I bought my Heatwave 190 after I had about 120 jumps on my Sabre 210. Before that, I demo'd a Stiletto for about 20 jumps to get a feel for the Heatwave.
Let's just say that I was damn glad that I had the ZP experience of my Sabre before I went to the Heatwave. The Heatwave as compared to my Stilettos (that I demo'd and the one I purchased later) was much more twitchy and the oversteer was quite impressive. The flare was really nice but not quite as good as the Stiletto.
Again, I'm just another measly C-license like yourself but I strongly suggest that you put some demo jumps on a square/semi-tapered 190 or 170 ZP canopy before jumping right into that elliptical.
The big differences:
LOT's more forward speed. Trust me, even for just 20 square feet, the difference was quite noticible to me.
Sensitive to harness input at my wingloading (1.35). I can turn the canopy pretty well just by leaning my body. You have to stay in control of your body now (not just your hands) on opening, during flight and on landing.
Forgiveness: There's some there, but not much. The problem is that with a higher wing-loading the ability to get yourself out of a problem is now hampered by how much time you have. With the higher speed and descent rate your reaction time has to be up to the task at hand.
The old adage of "not letting your canopy get somewhere your mind hasn't been to 5 minutes before" holds true here as well. I try to have my pattern in my head before I get on the airplane. Sometimes this isn't always feasible depending on the spot but I do it anyway and correct for the changes in my head while I am doing my post-opening house-keeping.
I did pretty well on my Sabre 210 and I've done well so far with my old Heatwave and with my new Stiletto but I can see that I still have a ways to go. This is why I am going to start looking for a canopy coach ASAP to help me find my bad habits & work on my technique.
Go slow, learn, keep asking questions, stay within your skill level but don't be afraid to push the envelope when needed (that's how we progress).
Just my $0.02 of that made any sense.
Kris

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Urgggggghhh>>
can't avoid ...... responding.....
aaaarrrghhh...
(at this point, innocent man turns green and begins shredding buttons from, otherwise seemingly loose shirt....)
Folks.
Clay is jumping a 190.... he's downsizing to a 170.. from what I've seen, (and Clay, I just talked to Tim today, and he says you're pretty heads-up/normal, unlike what people may believe here...)
Friends, if'n you feel uncomfortable with a one size change, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your own concerns/abilities.
look in your reserve containers, i'll bet that you all have a "super-zp-gizmo 150" and a 120-126 reserve.... I see it everyday.
One size change (i.e.190 to170 sq.ft.) will not injure any experienced pilot. Any pilots here... did your transition from 152 to 172 cause concerns that should awaken the general public and/or the FAA? If it did, it's only because you shouldn't be flying anything.
Clay,
From what "I've heard", you'll do fine making a transition to a "smaller" canopy.
Now I'll give you a heads up on Clay's report of the canopy.....
"WOW! What a machine... swoops great.. etc....."
Go for it....
(Now I'll Be politically correct.....)
no not me....
Chris

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Actually I think most people are just saying don't do it all in one step. There is 0 harm in doing it in 2 maybe 3 steps. The downsizing isn't a bad thing, going to ZP can only be a good thing, but why add in the 3rd of an elliptical in one jump. What would be so wrong with him doing a few jumps on a saber 170 then the next weekend jumping the heatwave or stiletto or whatever. If nothing else it will help him re-adjust his sight pictures for landing and figure out the new patterns he has to fly.
But than again I don't want to see him hurt cause I want to be able to pick on him in person in Eloy and well maybe if he is nice jump out of a balloon with him.

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"One size change will not injure any experienced canopy pilot"
That's a bold statement. First of all, how do you define experienced? The way I understand it, we are talking about people with around 100 jumps. Does that qualify as experienced these days? Second, it WILL NOT injure any experienced pilot? There are "experienced pilots" out there who suffered from lack of square footage...you might get away with saying it PROBABLY won't injure someone, but I don't think it's fair to say WILL NOT.
I never said Clay couldn't handle a Heatwave 170; quite possibly it would be a good canopy choice for him. All I'm saying is be careful...there is a difference between pushing the envelope and tearing it open.

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be careful


That is the number one imperitive. Trust me...no hooking for a while on a new canopy. Especially with all the changes. Straight in or maybe front risers on the first landing and then work up from there. It has taken me 91 jumps on my PD 190 to get where I am today. I can land that thing anywhere..cross wind, down wind, hooking, not hooking.....25 MPH cross wind or no wind. It's all good. I don't expect to be doing "Fun" landings any time soon. Give me three or four jumps.....:D J/K Dammitt!!!!
"I only have a C license, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

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>One size change (i.e.190 to170 sq.ft.) will not injure any experienced pilot.
Yikes. As I've seen just that kill two people, I will have to disagree.
>Any pilots here... did your transition from 152 to 172 cause concerns that should awaken the
>general public and/or the FAA?
Had I tried to do it with nothing more than my friend's advice, it would have - I wouldn't have known what to do with the fuel selector, for example. It took about an hour of dual to be comfortable in the larger, more complex (but only slightly faster) airplane.
If you are suggesting that, with an hour or two of "dual instruction" (i.e. a HP canopy instructor on a radio, talking people down when they transition canopies) people can change canopy sizes I'd agree. If you are suggesting that, with nothing more than what their pals say, anyone is OK transitioning one canopy size, I disagree.
-bill von

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Hehe, youll be fine, actually you would prob be fine on a 150. We have a nice flat landing area that is wide open. Ive seen the approach you do it will not be a problem. The Ellicptical does not turn that much faster, openings are not that much difference, besides you know how to pro pack now!! Its about time you got a new canopy :-) The difference in a 190 and 170 is very little now if you went from a 190 to a 135, then it might be cause of concern, but im biased i went from a 170 square to a 120 elliptical (and man did i catch shit for it, but they dont say anything now that i proved i actually can land the thing), and dropped the reserve from a 5 cell 210 to a pd 113R.
Pull High, play around, then bring it in on a nice conservative 90 front riser carve, to a double front.
Jonathan
D-24876

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