Comments on the article "From Tunnel to Sky"

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I started this thread for a discussion of the article "From Tunnel to Sky - Training Wind Tunnel Students to be Great Skydiving Students". Kirk and I would appreciate your comments and suggestions on tunnel-to-skydiving training.

(If you read the article less than about 2 hours after it was first put up, you will want to go back and start reading again at the heading "Advice for Skydiving Instructors." Part of the article got truncated when it was first published.)

[wan2doit 6]

After 8+ hours in the tunnel I am noticing the cumulative effect of the International Bodyflight Association's (IBA) skills progression program paying off by newer more complicated transitions coming easier than more basic skills I have done. Skills learned tend to build upon one another.

International Bodyflight Association has a training verification system (set up on their web site like a log book) that logs skills attained , hours flown and who a trainee's instructors were which possibly could suffice for what this "From Tunnel to Sky" article suggests.

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wan2doit

International Bodyflight Association has a training verification system (set up on their web site like a log book) that logs skills attained , hours flown and who a trainee's instructors were which possibly could suffice for what this "From Tunnel to Sky" article suggests.

Yes! Someone told me about that and I like it. What it doesn't have (but hey, that could change tomorrow) is a "skydiver track" so to speak, with the skills related to skydiving that a skydiving instructor/DZ is going to need to see. And why would it if it was just to log tunnel skills? Hopefully we will get comments from some instructors and DZOs.

[rmarshall234 13]

>Hopefully we will get comments from some instructors

I'm an old dog that came up through the static line progression with practically zero tunnel time. When I was finishing up my AFFI career at Perris several years ago they introduced a tunnel session for all FJC students. Although I sucked as a tunnel instructor and it was embarrassing being there amongst all the young talented tunnel rats, it seemed pretty clear to me that the students benefitted from even that, limited exposure. They all seemed to enjoy it and it gave them some sense of what to expect on their first jump. I think it also made them more relaxed on the jump.

Here would be my concern however: Skydiving is expensive. And tunnel time is very expensive when you consider that only one aspect of the entire learning process is being addressed. Freefall stability and movement.

I am all for employing new methods, techniques and technology to improve the learning process. And if anyone can make the Tunnel to Sky program work it's going to be you two guys. But any new program that is likely to push the financial viability of learning to skydive even further out and away from the average person...I'm not sure I can get behind. I think it's important to make skydiving as affordable as possible. I know I did my part by working for only $35/jump.

I'm probably wrong but that's my 2 cents.

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rmarshall234

... And if anyone can make the Tunnel to Sky program work it's going to be you two guys.

I apologize to anyone who is thinking that Kirk and I are proposing some type of new program. Not at all. We are just suggesting that we should all be thinking about how to use wind tunnel training (if available) toward skydiving training, and providing some examples and techniques of how to do this.

Both tunnel time and skydiving are expensive, but I have already heard of dropzones that require a certain amount of tunnel time to begin AFF training. I hope that we can use tunnel training efficiently so as not to increase the price of skydiving training by too much.

This is already being done to some extent with dropzones requiring tandem jumps before AFF. Adding a tunnel training option to replace the tandem jumps would give initial skydiving training some flexibility.

[rmarshall234 13]

Cool. Thanks for the clarification.

[jumpsalot-2 2]

This is already being done to some extent with dropzones requiring tandem jumps before AFF. Adding a tunnel training option to replace the tandem jumps would give initial skydiving training some flexibility.

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I think the requirement for a Tandem is to get a student out the door at least once before someone asks them to climb out for AFF. That can be very overwhelming. No amount of tunnel time can change that.

Life is short ... jump often.

[stratostar 5]

It used to be you could go to a tunnel with a student or low timer you worked with in the progression, however it seems like those days are over, even if you buy the time the tunnel folks want to train your student for you rather the allow you to work on the skills you came to work on. At least that is the impression I was left with at the newly opened tunnel down the street, so it is little benefit to me as an AFF instructor to take my students there. Hey I've got hours and hours of tunnel time and I want Skydive, just cuz they can fly in wind don't mean they can save their life, just saying.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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stratostar

... the tunnel folks want to train your student for you rather the allow you to work on the skills you came to work on.

A possible solution to that issue- A tunnel student might be able to talk a skydiving instructional rating holder into observing their training in the tunnel and verifying it in a logbook.

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... just cuz they can fly in wind don't mean they can save their life, just saying.

That's is why a good portion of the article suggested some training techniques to overcome some of those issues. Tunnel flying can replace only a certain amount of skydiving training.


There are a lot of issues and a lot to talk about.

[skydived19006 4]

I think that this is a topic well worth discussion, but "we" may be overcomplicating it. I run a single 182 DZ, we train IAD. I simply see an expedited progression, possibly similar to what we'd do if someone walked in with a 10 year old log book with 10 or 12 jumps. We move them forward depending on performance.

I think that what we may need to help some to understand is that the USPA student progression is not written in stone, you can deviate, combine, move faster, etc., all dependent on the students demonstrated ability.

For someone with five or 10 hours of tunnel time who came to my DZ with a desire to learn to "do it for real", I'd think that we would require them to do at least one simple IAD then progress to PPCTs if they did that exceptionally well. At least two PPCTs done exceptionally well to progress to H&P. Missing the "extremely well", they'd do all five IAD jumps. Well done H&P, move to 10 second delay, do that and look like a 100 jump skydiver, we'd move on. Potentially have them jumping from the top in 7 jumps as opposed to a dozen. Then push through the normal skills, likely spending the typical time on tracking, diving to dock, etc., stuff that's more difficult to simulate in a tunnel. As soon as they can demonstrate the A License Check Dive, they're on self supervision until completing the accuracy, 25 jumps, packing, etc.

How the tunnel more often comes into play with our situation, is that once students get to freefall, we encourage them to go spend time in the tunnel. As far as value, a student exiting my 182 at 10,000' has about 30 seconds of real working time, and spends $80 USD. For that same $80, they can spend four or five minutes in a wind tunnel with pretty much every bit of that time being highly instructional.

What I did learn though is that we need to instruct our students how to "go to the tunnel". I was discussing this very topic with one of our recent skydiver graduates. She didn't think that her time in the wind tunnel helped her at all. Turns out that she did a 2 Minute Introductory Flight. They need to inform the peeps at the tunnel that they are a skydiving student, and I'd think, do at least five minutes.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ