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BadDog

Dash M Service Bulletin

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Do you think that overloading a reserve by say a 15 pounds should be an acceptable excuse for reserve failure

15 lbs over the square footage? (You weigh 150 and you're jumping a 135 reserve?) Or 15 pounds over the placarded weight limit? (You weigh 269 and the weight limit is 254?)
Depends which version of 'overloaded' you're talking about I think.
Help with cancer research here.

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Speaking only about the recent Eloy incident -
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How old was this reserve?


No more than 5 years, since they didn't start building the DashM until 1996.
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How much over the placarded weight and speed was the jumper?

The incident occured after a belly big way. He wasn't going that fast. Wingloading was not a factor - the jumper weighed around 250 and was under a 282-M. Well within even the Canopy Nazi's recommendations.
Other comments -
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You own an Amigo, correct? How can one get one, if one were so inclined?

Call Freeflight. I'm sure they'd be glad to sell you one.
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My last question: what's the best reserve for the money? Swift Plus? PD? Should I wait for the RavenMax? Arrrggggghhh.

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Basically, any spanwise reinforced canopy will hold up to most everything you can throw at it as long as you stay under the TSO weight. IMO you can't go wrong with PD, Raven's or the new Tempos

PD. Hands down. Strongest construction, best landings, excellent customer service from the manufacturer (problem with your new reserve? Call them and they'll send you another one). My opinion of course, but after talking with some very experienced people who won't carry anything but a PD for a variety of reasons I replaced my 135-M with a PD143R.
I wouldn't recommend a Tempo to anyone after hearing about numerous very experienced jumpers who've broken their backs landing them, not to mention the hassle for a US jumper of getting any problems with the canopy taken care of - shipping to and from SA is very expensive, international phone calls ain't cheap, etc.
I'd be hard pressed to recommend a Raven to anyone who can't take a hard opening (camera fliers, those with prior neck and back injuries, etc) after watching a friend suffer for months from neck injuries after a nearly-terminal Raven opening, not to mention the horrible landing he had with it (this is a jumper with 1200 jumps who swoops every landing with his main - he knows how to fly a parachute). In addition, the DashM in the Eloy incident was not overloaded by anybody's standards - the jumper was well within the TSO limits.
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Do you think that overloading a reserve by say a 15 pounds should be an acceptable excuse for reserve failure

If you are loading a reserve over the manufacturer's maximum suspended weight for that size canopy you need to accept the fact that your reserve might blow up. Either deal with that or carry a bigger reserve. No manufacturer should be held responsible for a jumper's own stupidity... err, I mean gear choices. They publish the max weights for a reason!
pull and flare,
lisa

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not another option to ponder!! AAAAARRRRrrrrgghhhhhh!!
Head...going......to......burst....
What's it like? Also, what's the price point expected to be and what release date are you looking at? Demos set up as mains soon?
Thanks to you and to Lisa for her awesome display of canopy knowledge,
mike
Black and white are all I see, in my infancy...

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Concerning the issue of reserve size, I am going to have to disagree with you Dan. While I do not doubt that a jumper with the appropriate canopy skills to fly a 120 sq.ft. canopy should be able to land a 120 reserve, there is another factor to consider. A lot of times when you are under a reserve, a lot of other things are wrong as well. What if you hit your head and are barely concious? What if by the time you get your reserve out you are to low to make it anywhere except right in the middle of the trees? What if you have three broken line sets (I had this happen to me, and I believe I would have severly injurred myself under a 120 reserve. The reserve was in a spin and the oppisite brake had to be pulled almost to the stall point to stop the spin)? For this reason i think you should have a larger reserve than main.
William

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"If you are loading a reserve over the manufacturer's maximum suspended weight..." I meant loading it over the recommended maximum weight as placarded, of course far below the maximum (TSO-d) loadability. If I weight 185 pounds and a reserve recommended for 170 pound jumper blows up above me, IMO this is too little of a safety margin and I would consider such a canopy construction unsafe.
m.

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"If you are loading a reserve over the manufacturer's maximum suspended weight..." I meant loading it over the recommended maximum weight as placarded, of course far below the maximum (TSO-d) loadability. If I weight 185 pounds and a reserve recommended for 170 pound jumper blows up above me, IMO this is too little of a safety margin and I would consider such a canopy construction unsafe.

The TSO-[C|D] isn't just some magical number that the manufactures made up. If a canopy is certified under TSO-? it means that the canopy will (should) survive an opening with a ??? weight at an airspeed of ??? at an elevation of 0ft above sea level. I don't know what the different weight and speed limits are for TSO-[C|D].
If a manufacturer puts a recommended weight limit on a canopy other than the weight limit of the TSO then the manufacturer is suggesting that the canopy might be difficult to land because of the high wing loading, not that the canopy will not survive opening or landing.
If you're loading a canopy over the manufacturers recommendations and under the TSO specs then there is no reason to suspect that the canopy might not survive an opening and no reason to suspect that the construction might be 'unsafe'.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. :)-
Jim
Help with cancer research here.

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I stand by my statement - if you are loading a canopy - any canopy - over the manufacturer's published maximum for that size, you have no right to expect the manufacturer to stand behind it if it blows up on you. You chose to exceed their recommendations, you bear the responsibility if something happens. That's known as taking responsibility for your own decisions and actions. Got a problem with that? Sell your gear and take up bowling.
pull and flare,
lisa

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I stand by my statement - if you are loading a canopy - any canopy - over the manufacturer's published maximum for that size, you have no right to expect the manufacturer to stand behind it if it blows up on you. You chose to exceed their recommendations, you bear the responsibility if something happens. That's known as taking responsibility for your own decisions and actions. Got a problem with that? Sell your gear and take up bowling.

Ahh. But you do. If, for example, PD says that the maximum recommended suspended weight under a PD Reserve 120 (I'm making up sizes here, don't know if there's a 120 or not) is 120 pounds, but the reserve is certified under TSO-D and you weigh 135 and the reserve explodes on opening then PD is certainly at fault. The claim that the canopy is certified under TSO-D is a gaurentee that the canopy will hold up under the conditions set forth by the TSO.
Now - if you exceed the maximum weight specified by the TSO or the maximum speed limit, altitude, etc.... That's a different story. But, if the canopy won't hold up under the specs set forth by the TSO then they need to downgrade the certification or seriously reexamine their manufacturing process.
Manufacturers need to take responsibility for their actions too.
Just found this, it's the certification requirments for TSO-D. Any reserve advertising this had better be able to pass these tests:
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TSO C23d was issued June 1, 1994 with SAE 8015b as the performance standard incorporated by reference. C23d allows for certification of an emergency parachute at any selected weight and airspeed combination as long as it exceeds the minimum of 220 lb. at 150 KEAS. The structural overload tests will be conducted at 120% of the maximum certificated operating weight and 120% of the maximum certificated pack opening speed. The minimum structural test will be 264 lb. at 180 KEAS.


-
Jim
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Right on skybitch!
Any jumper that ignores placarded limits deserves whatever they get!
As for Dan's criticism of my decision not the jump reserves smaller than 170 square feet: my decision is based upon experience.
The smallest F-111, 7-cell main I have stood up the landing was a 170 something square foot Firefly/Firelite.
I have one painful landing on a PD 149? Lightning. A high pain threshold and tough leg bones are the only reasons I limped away from that landing.
On the other hand, a have made a few good landings under Triathlon 175s and Tri 160s.
I will freely admit that I do not have the skills to survive landing a tiny F-111 reserve. I also worry about landing a tiny reserve in someone's backyard or when I am injured.
As for mains, I am currently learning how to turf surf a Sabre 135.
Criticize my canopy choices all you want, but in 24 years of jumping, my worst injury has been a sprained ankle.
And I intend to keep it that way!
Hmpf!
I know that a few manufacturers are starting to build rigs for tiny mains and medium sized reserves, but I have already started building my dream rig. So far I have built the backpad, riser covers, reserve top flap, 2 d-bags, mud flaps and the mid wall.

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Rather than making things up, lets go to the source -
http://www.performancedesigns.com/products/reserve.html
Looking at the 113R on the chart, PD says the max. suspended weight is 220 lbs. If you are out the door at 230 on a 113R and it blows up that is NOT PD's problem, that's YOUR problem. By publishing 220 lbs. as the max weight, PD is saying that the canopy won't blow up if you are out the door under that. You really think they should be responsible for your choice to load it beyond what they say it will handle? Get real.
pull and flare,
lisa

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I do not think, in that case, that PD should be responsible, 220 is the minimum weight required to be certified under TSO C23D. However, if PD listed a max weight of 150, or 180 or even 219 and seven eigths, really anything under 220 _and_ said that the canopy was TSO C23D certified I would have a problem with that.
My only point was, that if a canopy is certified under TSO C23D or TSO C23C then the maximum suspended weight is dictated by the TSO - _not_ the manufacturer. If those maximum suspended weights happen to be the same then that's great, if they're not the same and the manufacturer's max is lower than the TSO minumums then that's a problem.
That's all. Quite simple really.
Help with cancer research here.

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Dan
Very bad incident. I was on a intermediate skysurf board. One of the bindings came loose. I tried to ride it down by placing my foot on top of the board. It kicked out to the side and locked in that position. The release must have binded because of the board being twisted to the side. The cutaway would not work. As the 40 something inch board was straight out to my side attached to only one foot it but me in a spin. I was spinning and rotating with the board spinning above me around the outside. The G-forces were unimaginable. I felt myself blacking out. The only think I could hope for was to pull the reserve because the angle of the board made it impossible for counteract, the cutaway for the board would not release, and the throw out would have probably just wrapped around me. I tried to reach in and pull the reserve with my left hand but the G-forces were so strong I could not bring it in. I reached across with my right hand and pulled it just as I was passing out. The next thing I remember, I could barely see because my vision was whited over. As my vision returned and I started coming to my senses I noticed the canopy was spiraling. The lines had passed through the spinning board and three line sets were broken. I was barely able to keep it flying straight. But I managed to land it ok. I had no hope of standing it up because all of the muscles in my left leg were pulled and I had a fractured right foot. After I landed they were able to break the rest of the lines by hand because of the wear on them going through the lines. The canopy was a Raven 1. How it opened i do not know. If I had been flying a 120 I do not think I would have fared the landing so well. I did not hurt anything on landing. Because of this incident i decided to always keep a large reserve for worst case situation. This is why I have a Raven 1 in my rig with an FX99 and my exit weight is 239.
William

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I agree with Jimbo, though I do not think about it as "who's responsibility is it" - if you exceed the maximum recommended limit technically and legally you are. But I think it really narrows my choice of reserve canopies when I hear that Raven 181 which max. recommended weight is 222 lbs., blows up at a loading of 230-something lbs, while it should withstand its max. limit under C23-d, since it is certified under TSO. Jumper's fault...
If I look at 2 comparable size reserves:
PD 126 - recommended weight for expert 176 lbs., max weight 254 lbs
Raven 135 - (no recommended weight?) absolute max.weight 182 lbs.,
then if I jump one loading it at 200 lbs. and it blows up, Precision would be "covered", and I am to blame. Most definitely - I chose the weaker design for the same money and pack volume. And while blaming jumpers for the incident/accident as resulting from minor (10-15%) overloading above RECOMMENDED (after 3 previous Raven failures PA calls it now abs.max.?) weight limit (way below the TSO limit) may be a valid argument, I think such an incident rather proves that some designs are better than others.
Also, accepting that some designs may be worse than others I still would not feel safe under even "properly" loaded canopy that does not seem to have a 10-15% safety margin - what if I happen to fall faster than normal, open in different body position than normal in the air less dense than normally?
m.

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"I still would not feel safe under even "properly" loaded canopy that does not seem to have a 10-15%"
That's why I bought a PD 176....I feel plenty safe even though I free fly and regularly exceed reccomended speeds during the dive. I want the most over engineered canopy on the market as my last chance....
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

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I have dash m raven 2 built in may or june of last year -lol, its due for a repack so I may go ahead and pop it to check for the prpoer bartacks and attachments?
I'm wondering if the incident referred to by precision is the one that happened to a friend of mine? Time to make some phone calls I guess ;)
http://www.cyberskydive.com/

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Lisa,
It's a good thing we all know who you work for or this might sound like some kind of blatant plug on your part. On the Sq.1 web site I noticed that you only offer one type of reserve. That reserve is a PD. I also noticed that you said you would be hard pressed to recommend a Tempo or a Raven because your friends #1 broke their back on landing the Tempo and #2 had a fast opening on the Raven.
" PD. Hands down. Strongest construction, best landings, excellent customer service from the manufacturer (problem with your new reserve? Call them and they'll send you another one). My opinion of course, but after talking with some very experienced people who won't carry anything but a PD for a variety of reasons I replaced my 135-M with a PD143R.
I wouldn't recommend a Tempo to anyone after hearing about numerous very experienced jumpers who've broken their backs landing them, not to mention the hassle for a US jumper of getting any problems with the canopy taken care of - shipping to and from SA is very expensive, international phone calls ain't cheap, etc.
I'd be hard pressed to recommend a Raven to anyone who can't take a hard opening (camera fliers, those with prior neck and back injuries, etc) after watching a friend suffer for months from neck injuries after a nearly-terminal Raven opening, not to mention the horrible landing he had with it (this is a jumper with 1200 jumps who swoops every landing with his main - he knows how to fly a parachute). In addition, the DashM in the Eloy incident was not overloaded by anybody's standards - the jumper was well within the TSO limits."
Now call me crazy but I thought reserves were required to open within around 4 or 5 hundred feet or 2 or 3 seconds. Sounds to me like any camera flier is going to end up with some neck problems.
As for your friends landing bad under Tempos I don't know what to say I have read alot of posts on these boards about Tempos and have not heared you recommend against them once. Mabey they screwed up???
I don't know if you have some new deal with your employer and you get a larger commission on PD products but it sounds like it.
If your going to be a moderator on these boards mabey you could stick with moderating.
If I am factualy incorrect on any thing (opening distance or speed) pease correct me.
I might be way off base here but what you said didn't sound like the person that normally post as Skybitch. You normally sound off about wing loading and canopy control. If I'm wrong then I need to trade in or give away my reserve before I'm paralized or killed.

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On the Sq.1 web site I noticed that you only offer one type of reserve. That reserve is a PD.

Look a little further. We've been selling both Ravens and PD's for as long as I've worked here. PD, Raven and Raven Dash M reserves are all listed in our online catalog.
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I don't know if you have some new deal with your employer and you get a larger commission on PD products but it sounds like it.
If your going to be a moderator on these boards mabey you could stick with moderating.

So because I work for Square One and am a moderator on the Talkback forum, I'm not entitled to express my opinions here? My opinions are MY opinions and have nothing to do with where I work or with my status as a moderator. If you don't like my opinions you're welcome not to read them; if you disagree you're welcome to state yours.
I don't get ANY kind of commision on ANYTHING; ALL Square One employees are paid hourly or are on salary.
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Now call me crazy but I thought reserves were required to open within around 4 or 5 hundred feet or 2 or 3 seconds.

Not that I know of. Has anyone else heard of an opening distance or time requirement for a reserve?
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You normally sound off about wing loading and canopy control.

Well, I'll be sure to stick to only those subjects from now on.

pull and flare,
lisa

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Thats funny, within 30 seconds of looking on Square1's website I found Raven's, Raven Dash-M's, and Rave Dash-MZ's for sale. I have seen some Raven landings this year (2 by a jumper with 15000+ skydives and 75+ reserve rides) and everyone of them was pounded in. The one Tempo landing I saw seemed to be going fine then just ran out of flare power at about 5 feet.
To get TSO'd the Reserve needs to open in 300 feet at a set airspeed. Just because it opens that fast does'nt meen it has to be a hard opening.
I've jumped a Monarch that opened in about 300-400 feet and it was fairly soft. I've also jumped a Cobalt that sniveled for 4+ seconds then opened so hard it made my camera skip frames. Opening distance has nothing to do with the hardness of the opening.
As for getting service out of Pisa on the Tempo's I've never directly delt with them, but it does seem from talking to some that did have to that Pisa takes a week to respond then they will start working on the problem. To a professional jumper, a week or more for a manufactoring defect could be a lot of lost money.
Watch some of the cutaway videos on line and you can tell who was jumping Raven canopies and who was'nt. The Raven's open much snappier then the rest.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

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Well, I know there is a service bulletin out so I guess on the next repack I'll get mine done (manufactured 97) but I can say this. Not speaking from what I saw someone do, or heard someone say, but speaking from my own experience. I had a reserve ride on my Dash M in September. It opened nice, very soft on heading, it flew just fine and I did a gentle stand up landing right next to pea pit. So I have no issue at all buying another one.

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"On the Sq.1 web site I noticed that you only offer one type of reserve. That reserve is a
PD. "
I'd look harder, if I were you, or at least make statements that can't be proven wrong by an entire population, with a couple of clicks of a mouse.
" Now call me crazy but I thought reserves were required to open within around 4 or 5 hundred feet or 2
or 3 seconds. Sounds to me like any camera flier is going to end up with some neck problems."
Speed of opening has nothing to do with how hard an opening is.
"As for your friends landing bad under Tempos I don't know what to say I have read alot of posts on
these boards about Tempos and have not heared you recommend against them once. Mabey they
screwed up???"
When someone is pulling toggles down to their ankles and getting no reaction from the canopy, when they are injured on landing, I wouldn't think that it could be said that "they screwed up".
"I don't know if you have some new deal with your employer and you get a larger commission on PD
products but it sounds like it."
That's a pretty bold accusation...oh, and completely off base.
"If I'm wrong then I need to trade in or give away my reserve before I'm paralized or killed."
I would.
Ravens have saved many lives. PD's have saved many lives, don't blow up, fly straight, and don't stall on landing. You choose.
Steve

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