cutaway or rears?

[FastDaniel 0]

found this vid and have a discussion with a friend of mine
i think using rears is stupid (small braked canopy, 270°turn and tailwinds)

vimeo.com/184641074#t=0m10s

[justme12001 0]

It's what I would do. Well not sure about the 270 part, but with a stuck toggle, I would definitely land my cross braced canopy on rears. You usually do anyway.

All depends on the person's experience and the canopy they are jumping.

[Pobrause 6]

Break input was minimal and a safe rear riser only landing is nothing too difficult.

Head or tailwind... who really cares?! As long as you are used to it controlled downwind landings are nothing special.
The 270° part (or well excecuted 90°) is pretty much a necessity if you want to have the power to be able to safely recover on rears.

He could have used the stuck toggle to brake with a bit of rear riser input but he chose not to and landed smoothly...
He's done a few stupid things but this landing I wouldn't count as one.

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To absent friends

[billvon 2,396]

If you have never landed on rears before - cutaway.

However, it's not hard to learn, and landing on rears can be a great thing in your toolkit to have.

[Bob_Church 7]

I don't have audio for that, so sorry if he mentioned this, but did he cut the right brake line? If not, wouldn't that make it difficult to get a good flare?

[Pobrause 6]

Bob_Church

I don't have audio for that, so sorry if he mentioned this, but did he cut the right brake line? If not, wouldn't that make it difficult to get a good flare?

No parachutes were harmed in the making of this video

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To absent friends

[FastDaniel 0]

Thank you for your postings. I'm not a swooper an I've never used rears for the landing. But I've heard, that you have only a small time window for the input. To early or to late means, that you'll get injured. Is this not a big risk?

[sammielu 3]

Risk depends on your experience with your canopy. If you've used rears for a couple landings or only in a canopy course, it's a lot of risk! Too much risk for a landing close to a hard object - earth. If you use rears to plane out every landing, much less risk, might be viable, make your own decision high enough to make that decision.

[councilman24 36]

Many more factors for each individual situation. In the video situation if the jumper was used to rears and the canopy was controllable in spite of the locked brake he did good. He did not cutaway a canopy he had confidence would land him relatively safely to open his LAST CHANCE TO LIVE, which can malfunction, up to total, or of have a delayed opening.

IF your canopy is controllable and either big enough to not matter much on rears or you have practiced and trained to land on rears then again, why cutaway your last chance to live.

If you have never landed on rears and can't safely land your canopy in half brakes and it is small enough that an unpracticed rear riser landing might be dangerous then the choice to cutaway is reasonable. Locked brake on a Manta 280 who cares, on a velocity it may kill you.

But while I never tell anyone they made the wrong decision if they cutaway and open their reserve, I might point out that they had other options to land their main safely. Again, reserves malfunction. Reserves often have never been jumped by the user. These days many are overloaded and are significantly different in performance and landing than the mains. Many newer jumpers seem to think that pulling your reserve is the final air bag safety cushion answer to anything. While it's nice to think so you are now relying on one parachute to work right and your ability to land a parachute you likely have never flown.

IF YOU NEED IT USE IT! Don't dick around trying to 'fix' your main. Don't die without all your handles pulled and pulled high enough to work. But if it's stable and you can likely land it think about whether using you last parachute is worth the ability to use two toggles to land like your used to.

All that said reserves usually work. If they didn't we wouldn't have a sport or we'd all be jumping base canopies. You shouldn't ever hesitate when your main is unlandable to use it. But when you've had a reserve total for 1400' like me ( I WASN'T the rigger) you know you want to use you main if you can.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[sundevil777 93]

If the problem was a locked brake on one side, I think I'd take enough wraps on the other side to simulate that one also being stowed. That would put the canopy in an even/symmetric stowed configuration. From that situation, flaring a low WL canopy with rears is not very scary because pulling on rears will also pull the steering lines along with it. The flare should be fairly effective and predictable.

If the steering lines were broken, that makes the rears so much less effective I think that I'd be much less likely to stay with it. More likely to not be effective and predictable. Even those that land on rears regularly, which is definitely not me, do it with the steering lines still attached.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mr2mk1g 10]

sundevil777

If the problem was a locked brake on one side, I think I'd take enough wraps on the other side to simulate that one also being stowed. That would put the canopy in an even/symmetric stowed configuration. From that situation, flaring a low WL canopy with rears is not very scary because pulling on rears will also pull the steering lines along with it. The flare should be fairly effective and predictable.

Or just a couple of fingers round the break line above the guide ring on the locked side and flare from half brakes. With the non-locked side, rather than taking a wrap, fly in half brakes through the pattern then flare as normal on that side whist keeping the wing level. This way your non-locked side serves to tell you when you're at your normal depth of flare to prevent you from inadvertently entering a stall. On moderately loaded canopies, flaring from half brakes shouldn't be too much of an issue.

[Bob_Church 7]

But what are the odds that using rear risers takes the pressure off the locked brake line and it clears at just the wrong moment?

[Pobrause 6]

Close to no brake input so nothing would happen, probably wouldn't even notice it but that is irrelevant as the odds are zero because it wasn't a tension knot.
He knotted his excess steering line around the lower excess keeper. No friction thing, a proper knot.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmz2IXPFhLw

Same thing that happened here

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To absent friends

[wasatchrider 0]

Bob_Church

But what are the odds that using rear risers takes the pressure off the locked brake line and it clears at just the wrong moment?

I would think not likely but so what if it does might have to pull a little more on that rear to straighten out

BASE 1519

[Bob_Church 7]

One of the first nasty injuries off the New River Bridge was a jumper who had a line over. He still had enough canopy to land in the river, we had really big parachutes in those days, so he cranked down the other side and went for it. He was just off the water and seemingly home free when the line over cleared causing the canopy to hook to the left and slam him into the rocks face and knees first.

[DJL 232]

FastDaniel

found this vid and have a discussion with a friend of mine
i think using rears is stupid (small braked canopy, 270°turn and tailwinds)

vimeo.com/184641074#t=0m10s

If you don't know the answer then you should cut away.



You're posting video of someone who has plenty of experience making a safe rear riser maneuver.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[PeteW 0]

At,around 65 jumps I was on my lightly loaded,Safire 2 210. Toggle popped off in my hand. I cnsidered a cutaway, then practised left turn, right turn and flare. I'd also done this on numerous flights. I decided not to chop it and land on rears. I damn near landed it. Next time I might. I was completely unharmed.

https://youtu.be/GZeTcnuwaCo

[377 20]

At the 2005 WFFC I had a super slammer opening that broke several lines including one steering line. My main was a docile Triathlon 210 which was flying straight so I thought I'd just land it flaring with rear risers (had never done that prior). I was still above my hard deck and tried a right and left riser turn, no problem. I tried a rear riser flare which started just fine but transitioned suddenly into a violent right turn. WHOA! Tried it again, same result. Some kind of asymmetry caused by broken lines was creating weird and dangerous flare characteristics.

CHOP CHOP. Hello PD 193R.

Never assume that just because you can turn safely in a damaged canopy that you can also flare safely.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[FastDaniel 0]

PeteW

Safire 2 210
https://youtu.be/GZeTcnuwaCo

It's not so hard to land a tandem safely. ;)

[timrf79 0]

Pobrause

Head or tailwind... who really cares?! As long as you are used to it controlled downwind landings are nothing special.
The 270° part (or well excecuted 90°) is pretty much a necessity if you want to have the power to be able to safely recover on rears.

Why was the turn required to land safely on rears?
I understands rears gain impact with speed, but I have landed on rears just straight in...

[Pobrause 6]

On a fltaly trimmed 170 no problem, even at 1.8 like you if you know what you are doing.
The steeper a canopy is trimmed the longer it takes to level off. Chances are with such small wings you run out of power and stalling the canopy way before ever getting level if you don't induce a bit of extra speed.

I don't have enough jumps on Petras/Peregrines to say it with confidence but I sure as heck would never even think about a straight in rear riser only landing under my old and trusty Vc84 at 2.6

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To absent friends

[kkeenan 13]

On a Sabre 150 with a knotted brake line, I figured that fixing the line later was cheaper than a reserve repack. I cut the knotted line with my hook knife and landed on rears. I agree with the reluctance to leave a (mostly) functional main for an reserve. Yes, they "always" work, but there's still that limited bucket of luck.

That being said, if you have any doubt about landing a main, trust your reserve.

Kevin K.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[Bob_Church 7]

I sort of do it the other way around. That is, I never jump a canopy that I wouldn't be comfortable landing with rear risers.