Merrick 0 #1 June 29, 2001 OK, so I'm ready to downsize, now the question is.... to What? Right now I have a Sabre 190 (loaded at about 1.15:1) that I've put about 40 jumps on... it's pretty conservative so I've never had any trouble landing it. I'm wanting to go down to a 170, cuz... well, I don't think anything any smaller would fit in my container. I was just going to buy another Sabre, but now I'm not so sure. I jumped one a couple times last weekend, and didn't have any trouble with it at all, it was a little twitchy, but that could just be because it's in desperate need of a re-line. I've started thinking that maybe I might like a Safire or even a Hornet a little better. Basically what I'm looking for is comparisons.... pluses & minuses of each, because the only one of the three that I have any experience with is the Sabre. While I like the Sabre, I just want to get a good idea of what else is out there!I've read through all the gear reviews that I could find & there are a lot of good things said about each canopy, so I'm still not real sure. I've heard that the Icarus is redesigning the braking system on the Safire because of some problems there... I'm concerned about the Hornet's quality (looks kinda cheap.. keep in mind I don't know s**t), longevity, & resale value.... the Sabre, well, I'm pretty happy with it, but then again... I don't have anything to compare it to! So, bombard me with any experiences, advice, or general opinions cuz I want all the info I can get before I make this decision! Thanks!"If words were wisdom, I'd be talkin' even more.." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #2 June 29, 2001 Merrick,I had posted a thread recently about the Safire vs. Crossfire, and after getting the responses, and talking to Jim Slaton and the guys at Perris Extreme, I have pretty much decided to skip the Safire and go for the Crossfire. I want to demo a couple of them first to make sure, and compare the Cobalt as well.The Crossfire probably one of the best designed canopies out there, assuming the performance matches your requirements.YMMVCarl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #3 June 30, 2001 hi merrick,please demo a cobalt before deciding on a new canopy.i think you will be glad you did.sincerely,dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krishan 0 #4 June 30, 2001 Is a cobalt considered a high performance or intermediate canopy. I am current in the market for a new main. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merrick 0 #5 June 30, 2001 Quote"please demo a cobalt before deciding on a new canopy."From what I understand the cobalt is a high-performance elliptical canopy.... and from everything I've heard & read they're not real efficient at the wingloadings I'm comfortable with. In fact, does the cobalt even come in a 170?? There's a guy that has been flying one at our DZ for the past year or so, he loves it, but suggested I look at some other semi-elliptical canopies before trying the cobalt or any other similar canopy (i.e. crossfire, stilletto..). Keep in mind that I'm still a beginner with only 55 jumps. Thanks for the replies so far guys, keep 'em coming!"If words were wisdom, I'd be talkin' even more.." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #6 June 30, 2001 How have you been flying that Sabre, Merrick? Are you landing standing up every time, regardless of the wind conditions? Know how to do braked turns? Have you used the front risers much? How's your accuracy? Can you put it where you want to every time?In my oh-so-conservative opinion, 40 jumps on that Sabre ain't enough to be thinking about downsizing. If you're loading a 190 at about 1.15, you'll be loading a 170 at about 1.3. That's a WAY hefty wingloading for someone with less than 100 jumps. Before you go there, think about a few things - how often are you jumping? Every weekend? How many jumps per month? Are you ready to be 100% on for the entire canopy flight? You said the 170 you jumped felt "twitchy". I don't think that was due to it being out of trim, I think that was because of the wingloading.Call me the Canopy Nazi, but I wouldn't want to sell you a 170 anything right now. Put another 50-200 jumps on that 190, then think about downsizing. If you're jumping often enough to be safe at 1.3 you'll have those 50-200 jumps by the end of the summer. Learn all there is to know about flying the canopy you have - any canopy flying schools near you? If not, get Fly like a Pro and Skydive 150 - Canopy Flight; then go up and fly the way they say. If you want more performance now go with a different canopy in the same size range. Actually at this point I'd recommend waiting until the Icarus Safire Gen. II and PD's new nine cell "Super Sabre" come out to buy any nine cell. Either one will be an improvement in performance over the Sabre. When you do decide to buy a new canopy, demo first, even if it requires travelling to do it. You won't really know which of the many canopies available is for you until after you've jumped them all.pull and flare,lisa----I don't think much, therefore I might not be Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #7 June 30, 2001 > Is a cobalt considered a high performance or intermediate canopy.------------------------------------------------------------------the cobalt has the widest loading range and best glide of any canopy i know.the cobalt is an IDEAL canopy for anyone competent flying a sabre. because the wing is more efficient you need to load it a little bit heavier than your sabre to compare apples to apples. ie. if you are comfortable flying 1# loading of your sabre you will be equally comfortable flying 1.2# on a cobalt. at this loading the cobalt will have the same forward speed, drastically better glide and flare. turns will however be more spirited. it is also the only canopy that has been tested for jumper safety at high speed deployments with force vs. time data taken at speeds up to 220mph. (drop testing of canopies only measuring peak force is testing of canopy survival, not jumper safety as no data is recorded that would indicate potential harm inflicted to the jumper on opening. broken necks on opening are much more common than most people would expect. something to consider if you will be freeflying)the april issue of parachutist magazine did an unsolicited review of the cobalt. they reviewed a lightly loaded cobalt in addition to a highly loaded cobalt. they tested a cobalt 150 loaded 1.1# and wrote " opens like a dream; smooth, no spikes, on heading. it really is the smoothest opening 150 this reviewer has ever jumped, compared to at least four other brands and models." we will be posting the complete article as a pdf on our web site.beginner range for a cobalt is 1.2 -1.4#the majority of the people flying cobalts are beginers (ie. > 50 jumps on sabres transitioning to cobalt) and intermediates. i know it is hard for some people to believe that a cobalt can be suitable for both beginners at low loadings and experienced pilots at high loadings. this goes against some of the propaganda that has been cramed into heads over the years. but the fact is the design aspects of this canopy that make it so stable and forgiving at low loadings allow it to be safely loaded heavier than any other 9 cell canopy. that is why you are seeing us develop a following of high performance pilots "it is a welcome relief when a canopy has the power to save you after a mistake".sincerely,danatair Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krishan 0 #8 June 30, 2001 How much does a cobalt go for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #9 July 1, 2001 list is $1600 and the average dealer street price is $1450you can find a list of dealers on our web site.sincerely,danatairwww.extremefly.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 4 #10 July 2, 2001 Merrick -Listen to skybytch, get some more jumps on that Sabre - then the Sabre-2 should be out for you to try! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merrick 0 #11 July 2, 2001 Even before I demoed that Sabre 170 my 190 was starting to feel like a "dog".... I used to race motorcross, and while some of you won't think this is a valid comparison, I know what it feels like to "outgrow" or be performing at a level above your equipment.....Quote"Are you landing standing up every time, regardless of the wind conditions? "Yes, I actually am!Quote"Know how to do braked turns?"Absolutely... I practice them every time I'm in the air now, & even practice flaring while in a turn.Quote"Have you used the front risers much?"No, this unfortunately I haven't... My risers don't have dive loops & my hands just slide down the front risers, no matter how I grab them, however the 170 I jumped had dive loops & I absolutely loved them.... that's actually the point when the canopy seemed to be 'twitchy,' and from talking to the owner of the canopy I determined that I'd simply pulled them down too far.Quote"How's your accuracy? Can you put it where you want to every time?"My accuracy is actually pretty good for my experience level.... providing that we're not waaay out from a long spot or a looong climb out & I'm struggling to even get back to the DZ. On average I consistently land about 10 - 15 feet away from my target, I have landed with in 2 feet of a 20" practice tuffet & swooped the peas (the one time I saw them NOT in two feet of water lol). A couple weeks ago I had to land in a very tight area (due to a really bad spot) w/trees on all sides of me except the north side & the wind was coming from the south. I landed into the wind in the very middle of this tiny area. I even put the 170 within 20 yards of where I wanted it on both jumps. I know that it's hard to believe, but I do fly my canopy really well, especially for my experience level. On an average weekend we get in anywhere from 1 to 6 jumps, it's a one c-182 dz that puts out lots of students, so no there's really not a chance of me hitting 100 before the end of the summer. I know that the popular opinion is to wait until you've put however many 100's of jumps on a conservative wingloading, but just like there are those that excel in freefall, there are those that pick up on the canopy stuff fairly well too. I'm not actually in any big hurry to get anything, that's why I'm still trying to form opinions on different types of canopies. I'll probably even end up putting another 20 jumps or so on mine before I transition. All I know is that I feel totally comfortable with the decision to downsize, and the instructors at the DZ are totally comfortable with it. One of the best, most safety conscious instructors I know is cool with it, in fact the guy that was trying to sell me the 170 is an AFF JM... these are people that see me jump every weekend & know my skill level, and they've told me to go ahead, that I seem to be getting bored with the 190.... and the AFF guy said that even if I don't buy his canopy that I should still try to find another one, so I don't think he was just trying to 'sell' me his! Thanks for the replies guys, this IS the kind of stuff that will help me in my decision... when I decide it's time.Blue Skies!!"If words were wisdom, I'd be talkin' even more.." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dutchboy 0 #12 July 2, 2001 Only think cheap about the Hornet is the price. They tend to sell for about $900 new. They are definitely easy to pack with the coded lines and the not-so-slippery ZP fabric.I've heard people who have flown both Sabres and Hornets say that they have similar flight charcteristics.Were did you get the idea that they were low quality? Every rigger that's ever looked at mine has been impressed with the quality of manufacturing.The Dutchboyhttp://www.geocities.com/ppolstra Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pammi 0 #13 July 2, 2001 Just my opinion, as impartial as possible considering I'm his wife, Merrick has always been a very good canopy pilot and has been standing up his landings nearly every single time, regardless of the wind conditions. A fact that, trust me, I get to hear about every time I face plant mine :) Now, as his wife, I really would be freaking out on him if he were trying to 'downsize before his time' :) He's been very smart and conservative about it. There have even been people recommend, say a 150 to him, which he smartly declined. Anyway..thanks for the help guys. We haven't had a lot of opportunity to see other canopies jumped since there are mainly Sabres at our DZ. PammiOur webpage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merrick 0 #14 July 2, 2001 Sorry dutch, I didn't mean to offend.... it's just all hearsay & opinions. But you know how opinions are! I think the deal is that equipment is regional. Our DZ is predominately a Mirage/Sabre DZ... anything else is considered less than adequate, simply because our DZO thinks they're best... whereas, a diff DZ somewhere else may be predominately Javelins & Safires. I think where you jump will greatly effect the opinions that you get."If words were wisdom, I'd be talkin' even more.." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dutchboy 0 #15 July 2, 2001 I'm not offended. I'm just curious about your statement. You said they look cheap and I was wondering why you would think that from looking at one. As I recall the fabric they use is actually stronger than the domestic ZP stuff that PD uses.The Dutchboyhttp://www.geocities.com/ppolstra Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #16 July 3, 2001 I have this problem at my DZ. I bring up the possable purchase of a hornet and I get coments like "piece of shit"," you wont be able to resell it" yada yada yada...seems everywhere I go they all want me to buy these ridiculously expensive new PD or Icarus canopies. I can hardly afford a used spectre or used icarus safire.Marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #17 July 3, 2001 QuoteI used to race motorcross, and while some of you won't think this is a valid comparison, I know what it feels like to "outgrow" or be performing at a level above your equipment.....It doesn't relate. Just because your system is more used to adrenaline does not mean that you are capable of handling a 1.3 wingloading on a high performance main canopy. Competence in the air comes from spending time in the air. If you had a couple hundred plus hours in an airplane, glider, parasail, etc., I'd sell you something smaller and faster no problem. But riding a motorcycle and flying a canopy are only alike in that they produce adrenalin.QuoteMy accuracy is actually pretty good for my experience level.... I submit that if you can't put what you are flying now within 15 feet of your target (the average radius of a pea gravel pit) every time you are not ready to downsize. Being very accurate on your landings means that you truly know how to fly that canopy size and type. imho you should truly know how to fly what you already have before you downsize any further.Quotethere's really not a chance of me hitting 100 before the end of the summer. You won't be able to get in 45 jumps between now and Labor Day? I submit that you aren't able to stay current enough to jump a canopy loaded at 1.3 considering your experience level.At your experience level, especially because you are jumping primarily at a Cessna dz, you have not seen anywhere near everything that can happen under canopy. How many other dz's have you jumped at? Sure, you're comfortable at your home dz - you know what to expect there. What's the most canopies you've been in the air with at once? Do you really think you'll be comfortable under a 170 at Quincy, with perhaps 30 - 40 other canopies in the air with you? What would you do if somebody hooked onto final right in front of you while you are at 100 feet? Pammi, will you still be able to pay the bills while Merrick recovers from a broken leg?Merrick, I'm not trying to be a know-it-all Canopy Nazi bitch, really. I don't know how much experience your instructors have, but my recommendations come from 11 years of jumping at both one-Cessna dz's and Perris, and from 5 years of selling gear to jumpers around the world. I've known way too many friends and customers who have been injured badly (yes, and killed too) because they bought or were flying something that was just a bit faster or higher performance than they were really capable of handling at that moment. I include myself in that statement - I honestly thought I'd have no problems with the canopy that ended up finishing off two of the discs in my back. The majority of the time you'll probably be able to land a 170-whatever just fine, but it only takes one mistake to leave you riding away from the dz instead of packing up for the next load. I hate it when that happens. That one mistake is way more likely to happen while you are still learning to fly your canopy. At less than 100 jumps with no other aviation experience, you are still learning how to fly your canopy.pull and flare,lisa----I don't think much, therefore I might not be Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faitor 0 #18 July 3, 2001 I agree with skymedic. I just purchased a new Hornet. All I hear at my DZ is comments like "PISA shit". I didn't buy mine because of a lack of money. I bought it for the value. I think it is funny because a lot of people talk trash. I wonder if they have noticed that PISA also makes the TEMPO. The TEMPO of coarse being the best selling reserve in the world. What we have here is "NAME BRAND SYNDROM". Just because a company has the best advertising doesn't mean they have the best products. Nike, Tommy Hilfigure, Polo don't necessarily make cloths that last longer than the ones they sell at Walmart;+) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #20 July 3, 2001 well, at least he got the Mirage part right Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #21 July 3, 2001 So you're recommending that someone with 55 jumps fly a Crossfire, weid??pull and flare,lisa----I don't think much, therefore I might not be Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ramon 0 #22 July 3, 2001 If your going 9 cell Hornet is your best deal $ wise.I personally know too many people that dislike their Safires, though I don't really have a problem with them. You can demo one. If you like the way a saber lands better than a Safire go for $ deal on Hornet versus Saber.Saber is old technology for high price brand new, If you find a sweet deal on a used one go for it.I used to disagree with Dan about the Cobalt thing, but...shee...demo away...plan your landing approaches and open high a bunch of times to learn the flare point, you will be very pleasantly suprised.There is absolutley nothing wrong or bad with a Hornet though.ramon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #23 July 3, 2001 NAME BRAND SYNDROME is a dumb salesman's technique for selling his brand of gear. He is not bright enough to point out all the advantages of his brand so his trash-talks the other brands. Psychologists call people like this "invalidaters." Life is too short to waste on invalidaters.PISA, Performance Designs and Icarus all build good canopies, period. I have jumped and enjoyed canopies form all three manufacturers.As for Mr. trash-talkers statement that it will be hard to re-sell Brand B .... That is true on his DZ, but with the internet and all, you should be able to re-sell it for a reasonable price somewhere else.Personally, I would mail order a Brand B canopy just to rile Mr. trash-talker! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #24 July 3, 2001 Nope, I'm suggesting for my money the crossfire is the way to go. I said to DEMO many canopies to find the one that best suits their particular needs... He wanted a comparison. I gave him one. I will be the first (OK second behind you obviously) to recommedend something he (or she) can handle in all situations. (By the way, Scott Miller has an excellent article in Sydiving dealing with this type of discussion - this month was part two.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Pammi 0 #25 July 6, 2001 I don't think the point Merrick was trying to make was that because he rode a sportbike/dirtbike and the like that it is the same as flying a canopy. I think what he was trying to say was that he knows himself, better then anyone else could I might add. Even I can't know what it's like to be him flying his canopy...how comfortable he is with it, his skill level, whether he feels confident in his abilities to handle whatever situation might arise. However, I think HE knows what he's capable of and NOT capable of and I trust his judgment. He's not the 'gung-ho' show-off type to jump into something without considering the possibilities first. So I guess all I can say is that, knowing him and how 'in tune' he is with himself and knowing what he can and shouldn't be doing, I trust him to make the right decision. I've seen other divers urge him to jump when the winds were a little higher then he was comfortable with and he had no problem saying "no, I don't want to do this," and I've seen him tell people up until now that he wasn't ready to downsize. If he is now considering it, I'm behind him.Our webpage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
skybytch 259 #21 July 3, 2001 So you're recommending that someone with 55 jumps fly a Crossfire, weid??pull and flare,lisa----I don't think much, therefore I might not be Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #22 July 3, 2001 If your going 9 cell Hornet is your best deal $ wise.I personally know too many people that dislike their Safires, though I don't really have a problem with them. You can demo one. If you like the way a saber lands better than a Safire go for $ deal on Hornet versus Saber.Saber is old technology for high price brand new, If you find a sweet deal on a used one go for it.I used to disagree with Dan about the Cobalt thing, but...shee...demo away...plan your landing approaches and open high a bunch of times to learn the flare point, you will be very pleasantly suprised.There is absolutley nothing wrong or bad with a Hornet though.ramon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #23 July 3, 2001 NAME BRAND SYNDROME is a dumb salesman's technique for selling his brand of gear. He is not bright enough to point out all the advantages of his brand so his trash-talks the other brands. Psychologists call people like this "invalidaters." Life is too short to waste on invalidaters.PISA, Performance Designs and Icarus all build good canopies, period. I have jumped and enjoyed canopies form all three manufacturers.As for Mr. trash-talkers statement that it will be hard to re-sell Brand B .... That is true on his DZ, but with the internet and all, you should be able to re-sell it for a reasonable price somewhere else.Personally, I would mail order a Brand B canopy just to rile Mr. trash-talker! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #24 July 3, 2001 Nope, I'm suggesting for my money the crossfire is the way to go. I said to DEMO many canopies to find the one that best suits their particular needs... He wanted a comparison. I gave him one. I will be the first (OK second behind you obviously) to recommedend something he (or she) can handle in all situations. (By the way, Scott Miller has an excellent article in Sydiving dealing with this type of discussion - this month was part two.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pammi 0 #25 July 6, 2001 I don't think the point Merrick was trying to make was that because he rode a sportbike/dirtbike and the like that it is the same as flying a canopy. I think what he was trying to say was that he knows himself, better then anyone else could I might add. Even I can't know what it's like to be him flying his canopy...how comfortable he is with it, his skill level, whether he feels confident in his abilities to handle whatever situation might arise. However, I think HE knows what he's capable of and NOT capable of and I trust his judgment. He's not the 'gung-ho' show-off type to jump into something without considering the possibilities first. So I guess all I can say is that, knowing him and how 'in tune' he is with himself and knowing what he can and shouldn't be doing, I trust him to make the right decision. I've seen other divers urge him to jump when the winds were a little higher then he was comfortable with and he had no problem saying "no, I don't want to do this," and I've seen him tell people up until now that he wasn't ready to downsize. If he is now considering it, I'm behind him.Our webpage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
