First rig...what are your suggestions?

[PhillyKev 0]

Ok, so I decided instead of stretching my training out to a jump every couple of weeks, I'm going to run up my CC and get it out of the way sooner. After student status, I'm going to want my own rig. I'll get used if I can find what I'm looking for used, otherwise I'm going to go new.
Anyway, can I get some opinions on best first rig based on the following order of importance to me:
Safety
Longevity (will still be worth flying as I get more experience)
Soft openings
Easy landings
Ability to get a little radical up high
Price
I'm talking full rig here...main, reserve, container.
I'm 195 lbs.
Thanks, and please be detailed as to why you make that suggestion and your level of experience.

[rhino 0]

My suggestion is this..
Almost all container systems are good.
I recommend a Racer because I jump one and it is the only rig I know of that is fail safe. It is comfortable, and has the fastest reserve deployment time of any that I know of.
Fail safe means "if there is a primary stitch failure anywhere on the harness the jumper will not come out." People will argue the point but I don't care it's a fact. So what if few to no jumpers have come out of there harnesses, I don't want to be the first. I like the added peace of mind.
Javelyn is also an awsome container, but a little more expensive. Wether or not you use a Cypress is up to you. If you can afford it, go for it.. It's good insurance.
Main canopy wise, I'd start with a 7 cell, Triathlon, Spectre like.. Loaded about 1 to 1.. Personally I recommend a Triathlon, as it has been a great first canopy for me and it easy to pack..
Reserve wise, PD or a Raven and you really can't go wrong..
One thing to keep in mind if you get a Racer is you cannot use an RSL and you may have a rough time finding a rigger to pack it. I haven't had any trouble though.
Blue Skies
Rhino

[NewGuy 0]

You and I are in the same boat... that is, I'm looking for my first rig as well.
I'd suggest checking out http://www.dropzone.com/gear/articles/ as there are some articles on getting your first rig, container and canopies.
As well, where people have recommended gear, check for the reviews under http://www.dropzone.com/gear
If I can't get used kit that I'm happy with (I seem to be a bit heavier and larger than the used gear I'm in the market for - 195lbs, same as you) I've been toying with getting a new Genera. Other options maybe a new Dolphin or Sidewinder - but I'd still have to sort out canopies for these.
RiggerRob works at our DZ (Pitt Meadows, Canada) and he has actually helped develop the Genera and has good things to say about it (search the Gear and Rigging Posts for Genera).
I'd really talk to your instructor to get some guidence though - at least that's what I'm going to do before buying anything.
Oh, yeah - and I'm going to get a Cypres. There's a whole verrrryyyy long thread under Safety about jumping with our without one if you have the patience....
Cheers,
NewGuy
Edited by NewGuy on 6/12/01 07:28 PM.

[Vlad 0]

You can now buy two awesome containers - Wings or Infinity, for the price of Dolphin. chech www.para-service.com and square1.com
Get a used main and a PD or Raven reserve. The cheapest prices for PDr were on Pier's website. The cheapest prices for cypres I found on Skykat.

[Dutchboy 0]

I got a brand new rig at an awesome price from Roy at www.para-service.com. I know several other folks have also bought his affordable rigs with good success. I got a Dolphin, Hornet main, Tempo reserve, and CYPRES.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[PalmettoTiger 1]

Kev, I'm one weight class above you and NewGuy and just recently finished my search for gear. Ideally I would have bought a nice Mirage and Spectre 230 but there's none on the used market!! You'll realize very quickly (especially with canopies) that most of what's being sold is one generation behind the curve. Which makes sense if you think about it - people are selling that gear because they're buying the latest and greatest.
As I'm sure you'll hear dozens of times, be very conservative with your first canopy. Don't get caught up in the "smaller is automatically cooler" mentality - you won't be ready for zippy canopies for a long time. You want a main that is easy to land under the worst conditions (low and windy after Helen Keller spotted your load) as well as the best conditions. That goes double for your reserve, and don't even think about exceeding MSW (Maximum Suspended Weight) on your reserve!
Pick a main first, or if you want to buy a complete rig, use the main's size and make as your first criterion. I would recommend getting a reserve one size larger than the main, just to be sure that you have enough canopy when you really need it.
If you're going to buy a new container, I would suggest buying one that's freefly compatible (i.e. double riser covers, all tuck tabs and no velcro, upward-pointing main closing flap, and little to zero bridle exposed). If you decide to try freeflying, it will probably happen before you've worn out the container and you don't want to go through the hassle of searching for gear again. You definitely don't want to have gear problems during freefall - that's apparently what caused the main-reserve entanglement at DelMarva. Finally, even if know right now that you don't want to freefly, it will add to the resale value of your container - your buyer may well be looking for a freefly-compatible container!
If you buy in pieces and have a main and reserve picked out, don't trust the canopy manufacturer's listed pack volumes. It's not that they're deceitful, it's just that there are lots of ways to judge it and chances are you'll get figures from different sources telling you different things. Call the container manufacturers and ask them if the canopy you're buying will fit into the container you're thinking of - they will probably have tried most of the common combinations already.
I think this only applies to new gear, but some people have mentioned that you get a discount if you buy two or more major parts from the same dealer (i.e. container and main). If the rig you want isn't being sold with a Cypres and you want to get one, the best price I found (by $150) was at http://www.skykat.com. They even shipped it to SSK and had it converted from two-pin to single-pin for free.
Finally, don't just look on the Internet for used gear. Be sure to check around at your DZ too. I spent four or five weeks scouring the classifieds here and at Enclave.com before I found the rig I wanted - at my DZ.
Good hunting, and let us know what you come up with guys!!
Blues, Squares,
PTiger
*insert sub-100 character sig here*

[riggerrob 558]

Unless your daddy is wealthy, your first rig will probably be like your first car, a popular model a few years old. Your first main canopy will also not be the fastest thing on the market.
Your first main canopy should not be the fastest thing on the market because you are going to make mistakes learning its envelope and expanding your own envelope. We want you to limp away from your mistakes. After a year or two you will tire of your first main - which by now will feel sluggish - and will want to trade it for something faster and more fashionable. If you have kept it clean, you will be able to resell it for almost the same price you bought it for.
Just one caution on fashion: the hottest canopies on the market are designed for people with thousands of jumps who do a thousand or more per year. Anyone with less experience would be a fool to buy the tiniest, hottest canopy.
As to which brand you buy ... anything form the top half dozen manufacturers will do, just some of the newer - freefly specific models - will resell better a couple of years from now.
Finally, look at local fashions. If you have never seen that model on your DZ and the local rigger curses that model every time he mentions it, then steer clear!

[NewGuy 0]

Does anyone know much about the Gen-X canopy that I believe comes stock standard with the Genera rig? I'm assuming it must be a good novice canopy as that's my undertstanding of the whole Genera complete rig set-up; it's for new jumpers.
Cheers,
NewGuy

[PhillyKev 0]

Thanks for all the great info, guys. I'm definitely planning on staying on the conservative/safe side. I'd rather buy a new canopy and be bored with it in a year or so and lose that money, rather than buy something I'm going to break my leg in because of a momentary lapse of reason.
Just based on info I've gotten from these boards and other places on the web, here's my thinking so far. 210 main....Saffire or Sabre. Not sure on the container, but know to look for good brand with proven quality construction, good protective flaps that are suitable for head down travel, cypress ready. Reserve I'll go with whatever good brand I can get packaged with the main for a good price.
Regarding the Genera...I would need the 215 size, which their site says is "still under development". Personally I don't feel comfortable buying something that new to the market place.
Now the "affordable rig" from Paraservice looks like a good possibility. Dolphin 2000 harness and container, PISA Hornet main, PISA Tempo reserve for $2265.
Will definitely talk to my instructor and rigger before any final decision. And yes, will definitely be using a Cypress and RSL.
Anyway, thanks for all the info guys and keep it coming. Any comments about the components in the "affordable rig" would be great too.

[NewGuy 0]

PhillyKev,
I'd be interested in knowing what you eventually get and what you think about it.
Cheers,
NewGuy

[skybytch 259]

Quote

210 main....Saffire or Sabre.

A 210 will probably be perfect for you - if you can, try to downsize to a 230-ish main for a few jumps before jumping a 210. Also, check out the Triathlon and the Spectre.

Quote

Not sure on the container, but know to look for good brand with proven quality construction, good protective flaps that are suitable for head down travel, cypress ready.

Check out the Infinity. Great price, quality construction, freefly ready, decent delivery time. Everything on the US market is Cypres ready standard.

Quote

Reserve I'll go with whatever good brand I can get packaged with the main for a good price.

For your first rig don't buy a reserve that is smaller in square feet than your body weight in pounds. If you need to use it any time soon you'll be really glad you didn't buy that smaller one.
You might also check around for a good used rig - you should be able to pick up a used rig with a Cypres and a zp main for $3000 or less. Just watch the age of the container and Cypres - older containers won't be freefly safe and Cypres units need batteries every two years, checks every four years and they turn into pumpkins after 12 years.
pull and flare,
lisa

[PhillyKev 0]

Any opinions on the "affordable rig" set up I have listed above? With that set up, I could get a brand new custom rig including Cypress for around $3000.
Dolphin 2000 harness and container, PISA Hornet main, PISA Tempo reserve for $2265

[PalmettoTiger 1]

That rig looks like a solid setup to me. I have yet to hear any negative comments about the Hornet; many people have recommended it as a good beginner's canopy (comparable to the Spectre and Triathlon). It also has color-coded line groups and the easier-to-pack ZP fabric.
As for the Tempo, you can't really go wrong with any reserve that's been TSOd. I don't know anything about the Dolphin, except that my DZ puts a Dolphin on every student. Might want to make sure it's got all the high-speed goodies (upward main flap, 0 bridle exposed, tuck tabs rather than velcro on riser covers and pin covers).
Blues, Squares,
PTiger
*insert sub-100 character sig here*

[Zennie 0]

I don't think Dolphins have a tuck-tab or upward flap option (I could be wrong). I think they use velcro to keep the costs down.
That's the thing about Dolphins and Racers for me. I know a lot of people use them and like them, but if you plan on doing anything freefly-ish having a rig with velcro just gives me the heebie-jeebies.
You really ought to look into finding a good used Vector 3 (not 2 or lower), Mirage or Voodoo. Javelins are obviously very popular, but I like the upward-pointing flaps. I've heard mixed reviews on the Wings (though that may be a good lower-cost choice).
I personally jump a used Vector 3 that I found for less thanthe cost of a new Dolphin and absolutely love it. It's rock solid and ain't gonna open till I tell it to.
On the canopy side, I have a friend that's planning on trading in his Sabre for a Hornet, so that seems to be a good choice.
------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie

[PhillyKev 0]

Thanks guys....just emailed Altico to ask about the above. I'll let you know what they reply.

[PhillyKev 0]

After doing some more research, I'm thinking Wings container. Looks ideal and the reviews I've read were glowing. Question...is it worth the extra $100 for the articulated harness? My DZ has a super otter so I'm only in the rig a few minutes before getting out in the sky. Does the articulated harness make a difference during the canopy ride, or is it mainly just for comfort while walking around in it and on the ride up?

[PalmettoTiger 1]

Disclaimer - I have never jumped an articulated harness.
BUT, most people I talk to say they're amazingly comfortable, especially in the plane (which, as you pointed out, is a short time), and they also make freeflying easier since you can "fly your body" and not "fly your rig." I think that down the road, more and more harnesses are going to be articulated, so you might want to do this for the resale value as well; you wouldn't want your rig to be perceived as deficient once the majority of rigs out there are ringed.
Blues, Squares,
PTiger
*insert sub-100 character sig here*

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

Any opinions on the "affordable rig" set up I have listed above? With that set up, I could get a brand new custom rig including Cypress for around $3000.
Dolphin 2000 harness and container, PISA Hornet main, PISA Tempo reserve for $2265

The Hornet is a good canopy - I have one now and love it.. As for the reserve - well, it's certified under TSO 23, so I wouldn't hesitate to jump it.. I have a Tempo in my current rig, but the main reason for that is that I could get a larger reserve in the same container if it were a Tempo.. I plan on getting a Voodoo container with a PD reserve soon - the PD reserve because they are much more reinforced and would probably stand up better to a high speed deployment.. How often do high speed deployments happen? Not often - but based on the fact that I do 99% freeflying, I am willing to pay the extra cash(and take a bit of a smaller reserve) for the extra piece of mind..
Don't take this to mean I think the Tempo is inferior - it certainly is not.. If I thought that, I would never have jumped one(or continue to jump one)..
Instead of the Dolphin container, you should consider the Genera if you are planning on getting one of Roy's "affordable rigs".. Another thing to consider is "building" your own setup.. If you go with a Hornet and Tempo(I think you said 210), along with an articulated Wings container, you're looking at around $2575 or so.. Less if you go with the standard harness - not articulated.. I definitely suggest getting a freefly friendly container, even if you don't plan on freeflying.. It will help with resale..
I think you also asked about articulated harnesses.. They rock.. Mine has hip rings(Talon 2 with F.A.S.T.), but not fully articulated.. I have jumped other fully articulated rigs, and they are much more comfortable, and makes maneuvering in freefall(mostly freefly) in my opinion.. If you can afford it, get it..
Mike

[NewGuy 0]

Aviatrr wrote:

Quote

Instead of the Dolphin container, you should consider the Genera if you are planning on getting one of Roy's "affordable rigs

I'm in the same boat as PhillyKev - looking for a first new rig.
One Question, are there any specific reasons you mention the Genera container? I'm hoping you might have some more info on it. Cuz I'm interested in either the Genera or Dophin and my opinion seems to sway back and forth each day as I investigate containers.
Cheers,
NewGuy

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

One Question, are there any specific reasons you mention the Genera container? I'm hoping you might have some more info on it. Cuz I'm interested in either the Genera or Dophin and my opinion seems to sway back and forth each day as I investigate containers.

Well, the reason I mentioned the Genera is two fold.. First, it appears to be freefly friendly(I'm going strictly by brief encounters on the DZ with these containers - I have not jumped one).. Even if you don't plan to freefly, better pin/bridle/riser protection is always a good thing.. Second, I own a Rigging Innovations Talon 2 - and not only are their rigs awesome, but Rigging Innovations customer service is awesome.. Sandy Reid(owner/president of RI) is always happy to answer questions and help out however he can.. If you have any specific questions about the Genera that aren't answered on their website(www.rigginginnovations.com), call Sandy and ask.. My next rig will be a RI VooDoo..
I have no experience with Altico - I can't comment on their customer service or product.. I'm guessing that their product is good as well - look how many of them are out on the market.. I do not have any idea how freefly friendly the Dolphin is though..
Mike

[NewGuy 0]

Thanks Mike - I appreciate the reply. I'm pretty much interested in fryflying, so that's good to know.
Cheers,
NewGuy

[PhillyKev 0]

Here's the reply I got from Altico.
Hello Kevin,
Thank you for considering the DOLPHIN for your personal rig. I will try to
answer your questions in order:
1) If you are planning to do freeflying, it probably doesn't make much
difference
whether the main flap is upward or downward. The wind is going to be
coming
from all directions eventually, because you'll be head down part of
the time, and
also standing up part of the time. I think the primary concern here
is, "How
securely does the pin cover do its job?" On the DOLPHIN the main pin
cover
is reinforced with a layer of ballistic cloth which forms a sort of
"tuck tab" at the
lower end. This folds under the top flap and secures with velcro
underneath.
We've never had any reports of the main pin cover coming loose in
freefall.
2) At the mouth of the BOC pouch there is a 2-1/2" piece of velcro to help
secure
the bridle, and then there is a flap that completely covers the bridle
all the way
to the mouth of the pouch. None of the bridle is exposed. There may
be a
number of jumpers who are not aware that this is standard now on all
DOLPHINs, because we have not advertised these features; we simply
added
them over the years as we received feedback from jumpers and riggers
in the
field.
3) The current "DOLPHIN 2000" features riser covers that come all the way
over
the shoulder, and look similar to most of the popular rigs on the
market. They
secure with velcro tabs on the yoke. However, due to requests from
the field,
we have been testing a tuck tab version for several months and so far
the
reports are 100% favorable.
We have not announced it yet, but this tuck tab configuration is
available
for an additional charge of $40.
4) Both the main and reserve containers on the DOLPHIN are closed with one
pin.
I hope this information will be helpful to you, if you need any further
information we'll be happy to provide what we can. If you'd like to discuss
any of this by phone, our number is: (352) 523-0052. That number rings at
home as well as in the plant, so you can pretty much get me there 24-7.
Also, if you haven't already done so, check out our website at >
Best Regards,
Mike Furry, President
ALTICO

[Zennie 0]

I do give them credit, they do have very good customer service. I've heard this before.
On point #1, I'm not sure I completely agree here. Practically every modern container geared toward freefliers (Voodoo, Mirage, Wings, Vector III) have upward pointing flaps. My rigger favors the upward flaps not only because they seem to be more secure in freefall, but because they also offer better protection on the plane when you're shuffling around.
On point #2, the velcro at the mouth of the BOC pouch is a very good feature. Any extra securing of the bridle (within reason) is a Good Thing (tm).
On point #3, tuck tabs for the riser covers is also a Good Thing (tm). One of our packers had a really horrifying horseshoe/two-out situation when his velcro riser cover came free and created a horsehoe situation for him (he is a freeflier).
If your choice is between the Wings and Dolphin containers, I'd prolly go with the Wings. Again because I like upward-pointing main pin flaps and because I beleive the Wings does not use velcro anywhere.
Just my $0.02
------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie

[PhillyKev 0]

Well...talked to the guy who runs the rigging shop down at XKeys. He basically shot down that whole get up. Said the Tempo reserve usually has to be flown straight with one toggle at half brakes. Not a good idea. I saw that comment from a couple others in reviews.
He said the Hornet main may be good, but if you ever land in a tree or on a fence, or for any reason ever have to send it to the factory for a repair, it has to go to S. Africa. They don't have a repair facility here.
His opinion on the Wings container was that it's a good quality container, but low resale value. Don't think that puts me off it too much though. The Dolphin container he said doesn't cover the bridle well and has some questionable stitching.
I asked what he suggested, and he said the best thing is to talk to the gear store at the the DZ and go through them. His opinion was that they'll be the best service and most reputable source for gear (they don't want a bad rep at the dz they do business), but will cost a little more.
Everything he said makes sense and he seems like a good guy (did my last jump with him as instructor). But I wonder if he's biased toward the gear store on site (Square-3).
I haven't really gotten any negative feedback on here about the equipment. But I'd like to get more opinions before I increase my first rig cost by $1500.

[Dutchboy 0]

Sounds like this guy is more than a little biased, and also not familar with some of the rigs (i.e. the Dolphin 2000). For what it is worth, I had 4 riggers at my DZ recommend a Dolphin 2000 knowing full well that I would freefly with it.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra