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lopullterri

How long was your first jump course?

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My first jump course was 3 weeks in FT Benning, GA. It was probably 4 hours of training crammed into 3 weeks but that is how the military is B|

My first AFF was 4 hours. Me and one other student. I had plenty of fight time and military static line jumps so I felt very comfortable with all of the information being presented to me. The most important lesson I got was "never be afraid to ask a question" and I guess I have expounded that to I am still learning.

My goal is that when all is said done I will have a big pile of well used gear and a collection of great stories.

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Mine was about 3 hours for the AFF FJC. I am a very quick learner and had studied the SIM relentlesly the few weeks before doing my FJC so I had a good bit of information going in and it was easy for me to grasp. I didnt have any problems at all either in freefall or under canopy. I think it really depends on the student and if its a 1-on-1 like mine was or an actual class. I can see it taking much longer with a bunch of people doing it at the same time.

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My FJC lasted a day and a half.
We spent most of Saturday in the classroom, followed by a morning of practice at the airport.

The quickest I have ever taught a S/L FJC was 3 hours to an unusually bright and athletic young man.

Most of my IAD FJCs take 5 or 6 hours, or until the students "get it."

My longest FJC had me quitting after two days because the young guy was too high strung to grasp the material.

Any important part of any FJC should include confirming that learning has taken place.
IOW We rehearse on the ground until the student can perform a task without prompting. Only then do we contemplate gearing up and walking to the airplane.

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If im not mistaken, my FJC was about 6 1/2 to 7 hours split over 2 days. I think its better to split it up if you're gonna make it long because i know my attention span isnt the best sometimes. But i was able to retain pretty much all information given to me and feel i am a pretty safe skydiver. Maybe not the greatest but at least im safe.:P

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride!

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About 4 hours for static line (back at the dropzone that probably prompted this poll.) I like to think I turned out okay, haha.

It takes the right combination of being smart, cool headed, and having that sense for what things you just need to take people's word on until you develop your own to be a fast learning skydiving student. It's hard to describe.

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S/L FJC 35 years ago w/about a 8 other students. Took about 4 hours, I guess - course in the morning, jump in the afternoon. Almost the entire course was dedicated to EPs, with a lot of time per student doing cutaways in the hanging harness. There was no (none; zero) training in PLFs as such; and we were using T-10s. (They just taught us to put our feet and knees together & look at the horizon, and had us "jump & squat" off a platform a couple times.) I imagine if there had only been one student, it could easily have been done in half the time or less.

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Mine was about 3-4 hours the first time (with only me in the class), then about 1-2 hours the second time. (I had to take a year and a half off after AFF2 due to $$ and then wx, so I just started the AFF progression anew at my new DZ). The first course was very thorough, and I certainly benefited from the one-on-one instruction. I also assume I had a bit of a knowledge base advantage coming in with a physics and meteorology background that made understanding freefall and canopy aerodynamics and wx concerns much easier.

My second FJC was also one-on-one, and turned out to be much more of a review -- I remembered far more than I expected from my first FJC. My instructor quizzed me on each topic, discussed in more detail the knowledge gaps that I'd developed during the intervening year, and then focused mainly on EP's and dive flow.

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I did my FJC in 1975 and it lasted a week. I was in a military sport skydiving club (so it was USPA based) and we trained every night (about 3 hours each evening) after work. We started classes on a Monday and jumped Saturday morning from the tailgate of CH-46 helicopter.

To say the least it was very thorough and included packing classes so I can say I packed the first parachute I ever jumped. I didn't feel overloaded as we had time to absorb the information we were getting and also time to review one day's material on the next day.

When I returned to civilian life and found static line FJCs were running about 3-hours in total it kind of shocked me. And after I became an Instructor myself my courses always ran a bit longer. But I paired down everything not necessary to making a successful first jump and included more time to actually practice what the students were actually going to confront.

Over the years I sat in on (or at least listened to portions of) FJCs all over the world. I'd just walk up to whomever was teaching that day and ask. And I've never had an Instructor say no. I always thought this was the best form of continuing education an Instructor can have as I always picked up better or more effective ways to teach things from other Instructors. Too often we get certified as Instructors and operate the next twenty years in a vacuum.

On the other hand I also learned a lot about how not to teach FJCs.

Basically the info in these FJCs are fairly homogeneous but the presentation of that materiel was all over the place. When you sit in a FJC and already have a thousand jumps and the Instructor says something even you can't comprehend there's a problem, LOL.

BTW, if you're interested, the idea for the civilian 3-hour static line course was invented a long time ago by Jacques Istel and Lew Sanborn. And it was called the Telsan method. They figured if you took the information presented in the 3-weeks of Army Airborne School and dropped all the marching, running, and shouting, it only amounted to an actual three hours of useful information that pertained to the jump.

When AFF began in the early 1980s I continued, maybe even more so, to sit in on other instructor's FJCs. And I've seen probably every kind of course there is. I've seen comedy FJCs. There was one Instructor in New Zealand who had the students (me included) rolling on the floor in tears of laughter the entire time. And that course was very complete and very effective. I've seen death FJCs, where the Instructor wielded the Sword of Damocles over our heads by using the word "death" in almost every sentence. Needless to say I left that class wanting to sell my rig.

I always judge an Instructor, not by their in-air performance but on their on-ground performance. I had a long time friend at Perris, who was a good skydiver, but his FJCs were so droll and boring his students left class looking like zombies. I finally sat in on one of his courses and saw students nodding off even as I almost fell out of my chair.

On the subject of overloading students. I can humbly say I never heard anyone mention that problem until I did many years ago. The analogy I used was, students are like batteries, overload them and they short circuit. More to the point though, and in the final analysis, a FJC is designed to get a first time jumper through that first jump alive. And you need to teach it to that end.

When a FJC student has a malfunction on a first jump, or even a smaller problem, the answer to that issue doesn't just pop into their minds like it does for you and I. They have to go through everything they just learned in a linear fashion looking for the right answer. And that will include every non-essential thing you told them which just burns time. (Yeah, those jump stories you told in class were cute, but guess what? This course isn't about you!)

A good illustration of this is some years ago we had a large spate of very low cutaways by students under good canopies. The one thing most of these instances had in common was the student wasn't going to make the drop zone due to winds or a bad spot. But we eventually figured out what it was. (By talking to the ones that survived.) As those students searched for an answer to why they were landing out (and taking into consideration some would be rapidly approaching panic mode) they'd come upon a phrase they heard during class. "If you're being dragged by the wind, cutaway!" So all it takes is them not recalling the "on the ground" part of that sentence. So we changed that to haul in on a toggle, but even that could be dangerous so we dropped it altogether. Most DZ's have someone out there to assist students during landing and the number of students killed from being dragged, compared to low cutaways, is nil. But I'd bet there's still many Instructors out there teaching that to FJC students today.

I lobbied USPA for a time to include Instructors sitting in on x-amount of other people's FJCs as part of keeping their rating. But it went nowhere, and in fact, Bill Ottly told me flat out, "It won't work Nick, you know these guys fudge just about every requirement already anyway."

One thing I always enjoyed is conducting the old style JCCs and ICCs for new Jumpmasters and Instructors. I was finally teaching the teachers so I could pass on all the things I knew about skydiving to people that could actually comprehend it. But it made me actually think things through more completely so it naturally made me better too. Think about it, when you teach first jump students you aren't passing on 1/10 of what you really know about jumping. You can't do otherwise and still have an effective FJC in the current amount of allotted time.

So when USPA changed the AFF certification course from being conducted by just three course directors who traveled the country to the present system where almost every DZ has a course director I thought it was a mistake. But there's a silver lining to it. And that's more people get the opportunity to teach the teachers and that's nothing but a good thing.

There is, however one deadly flaw in the present way we teach the 7 to 8 levels of AFF. And that's lack of continuity between the first level and the last level. Sure, there is a syllabus Instructors should follow but all too often I see later level students get put into the hanging harness (and believe it or not some DZ don't even do that) and the only "new" information imparted to the student is the dive flow for whatever level the are about to do.

The fix to that would be having the same Instructor all the way through AFF but at all but the smallest DZs that's not very practical. Where this really comes to light is in the area of canopy control. We often hear nowadays from those teaching advanced canopy skills to experienced jumpers that the FJCs are failing to teach the required knowledge. And in a way they're right and in a way they're wrong. They are wrong in light of they don't understand you can't teach a first jump student too much more (without overloading them) than the basics of don't land in a turn, it's better to hit something under control than while turning, and the whole world is a drop zone so it doesn't matter too much where you land as long as you land safely. (I over simplified that, but you get my point.)

Where the ball gets dropped is in later levels where we should be building on the knowledge that came before but we don't. I'm always amazed when talking to jumpers in their first few years of jumping that they never heard this or that during their training. But it happens all the time.

Another way to look at it is when I was first took civilian flight training (to fly aircraft) I had the same Instructor every time I went up. He knew my strengths and my weaknesses. He knew exactly what I already knew and didn't know because he was teaching it all. Could you imagine how half-assed flight instruction would be if you had a different CFI every time you took an hour of dual instruction. Well, you don't have to imagine it, just look at how we conduct AFF courses.

I've often thought the market place would solve all these problems. But so far it hasn't happened. For instance sometimes I think the worst place for ground instruction is on a DZ (because of all the distractions) and they should certainly be longer in length. Maybe held in a hotel conference room over three nights. I do know some enterprising AFF Instructors who'd just privately take on one student at a time, they then charged more money, and only took the student to the DZ for the actual jumps. I really hoped that would catch on but it hasn't as it runs afoul of most DZs SOPs of get 'em in, get 'em through, and get 'em out style of keeping the cash register ringing.

And while on this soapbox I'll end this with where the hell is our Instructor's Convention? Riggers and Manufacturers have one. Where can I go and listen to lectures by more experienced instructors and pick up the hot tips and tricks?

I don't feel like there's an alarming amount of student fatalities as in fact there isn't. But when a student is done with AFF we tend to think, as instructors, that we are off the hook. But if that former student dies on a jump within the next few hundred dives than most likely their failure to save themselves was our failure too.

My advice to future Instructors is think more outside the box and never miss an opportunity to keep learning effective teaching methods. Keep in mind students are individuals and what works for one may not work for another. And don't apply a clock to your FJC. A student is ready for that first jump when they are ready, period! No matter if that takes 5 hours, 10 hours, or three days. Holding an Instructor rating is a big responsibility and too many of us look at it like an avenue to free beer and getting laid a lot! But that's just a means and not an end, LOL!

I guess, although you could, don't teach FJCs like this: http://www.youtube.com/user/rgtthlktrhpmothgopm#p/u/6/IGedo401QJs

NickD :)

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I seen death FJCs, where the Instructor wielded the Sword of Damocles over our heads by using the word "death" in almost every sentence. Needless to say I left that class wanting to sell my rig.



I was at a wedding like that once. The preacher kept saying, "'til DEATH do you part" every other minute or so.

I believe my FJC was about 7 hours. The included a lunch break and a few other breaks as well. From 8am until somewhere around 3. I did not get to jump that day (weather) and I believe I got another hour or so with my two instructors before I jumped.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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Weddings, whatever . . .

This is real parachuting! The first parachute jumps were made long before airplanes were invented and the last parachute jumps on earth will will be done without airplanes.

The following was right after the Space Shuttle blew up on launch back in the 1980s due to faulty O-Rings in the boosters.

http://www.youtube.com/user/rgtthlktrhpmothgopm#p/u/22/Q8GXt6im2mM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx4d2VP7tew&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p-ZswsalU4&feature=related

Get your heads out of your ass, boys . . .

NickD :)

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I had my FJC in 1973. It was organized in two sessions (Tuesday and Thursday) of 3 and half hours each. I like the idea since we had homework to do between the two sessions like taking a poised position and simulate a launch from a Cessna 182 done using a kitchen table edge as a strut.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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Back when the rules could be bent a bit, I had waatched some jumpers andaskif my friend had an extra chute.

About ten minutes later I was inthe Cessna 180 headed up, andfor afact, I never had a course on any aspect of the jump.

I had seen what the others did, and thought " Hey, that looks easy enough" and I was on my way.

Costs then were 10 jumps for $125.00, all equipment supplied and instrcution.

Bill Cole D-41 Canada




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FJC: One whole day. :$ Sat. 8-5... 'twas a great day!...B|
Even with 18 other people!!!:S

Lunch was AWESOME! It was included in the FJC course price... If anyone ever makes it up to Eden North, make time to have a snack at Donna's Cullinary Shack!!!:P

I certainly tip my hat to the two instructors ;) and various JM's that were involved.

One thing was so clear about the whole process... safety first. :)

And just to follow up with what came next......

Each AFF lesson (pre and post jump) usually entailed up to 3 hrs
On my second crack :ph34r: at AFF4, it was only 20 min's... lol... :ph34r::ph34r::ph34r: Left turn spins are... outa this world :ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:

Half-Way to 'A' and lovin' them blue skies...
and women with pretty blue eyes...
& ... "EH?"

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I used to think more was better but over the years I have changed my position. I have been teaching skydiving for over 20 years now and I still consider myself to be a STUDENT.
In my early days half the class was PLF's Then we had to teach how to fly those advanced "square" parachutes.

I think it gets to the point where you reach sensory overload and anything beyond that is wasted. Keep it simple and keep it safe.

We teach a Tandem progression (AFP) and we have a tunnel 5 minutes from the airport. I concentrate on canopy flying and emergency procedures. The freefall stuff is easy.

We have a great success rate and I can honestly say in 24 years of instructing I have personally never had a student fatality or even a serious injury.

The proof is in the pudding, my class only lasts about 4 hours but my students have 2 tandem jumps already and most have tunnel time. The tunnel time is not mandatory but it is encouraged and our kids get a good deal on minutes.

The times they are a changing:P

Onward and Upward!

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I think it gets to the point where you reach sensory overload and anything beyond that is wasted.



Agree. Connecting the new knowledge with existing knowledge require time as well. That is also the reason that course should be spread over several days and not propped up in one single day. And in the most practices the very same day the first jump takes place as well.

If everything required for safe jump could be teached in one day, this kind of discussons would not be visited so often by so many ppl.

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"but my students have 2 tandem jumps already"

I wish everyone could start this way. I believe that having two tandem skydives under your belt before a class and any other student jump is extremely valuable, whether you continue on to a 4 hour course or a 6 hour course.
~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

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I believe that having two tandem skydives under your belt before a class and any other student jump is extremely valuable...



And I believe the only thing it gives (many of) them is "tandem knees" for an ingrained body-position during their 1st actual "solo" freefall. ;)

Just sayin'...

Thank goodness for (available) variety.
One size, IMO just simply does not fit all.
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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That can happen and its probably a high percentage of Tandem Students who do this.

But a few minutes of corrective training as they transition to AFF (or SL/IAD) can fix it.

I think 1 is a good thing for any of the students who an Instructor thinks may be a bit over whelmed.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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