Atmonauti

[pilotdave 0]

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If the diagram makes no sense to you, then its even more clear as to why you haven't yet understood the concept, since it makes total sense to those who are familiar with the technique.

I believe you FEEL what you see in the diagram, but that doesn't make the diagram correct. Aerodynamics is not magic. It is based on physics. You use a lot of fancy terms to express what you feel (like that you're falling in the direction your head is pointing). Your diagram ignores the fact that you just can't do that. I'm sure I'd love atmonauti if I had someone here to teach me how to do it. I'm sure I'd feel like I'm slipping through the air generating lift with my body. But it still wouldn't explain the true physics of whats going on. If you can fall at 70mph (vertical speed) while maintaining a 45 degree trajectory, there's something really amazing going on. I mean really. I would love to see some wind tunnel modeling or actual analysis of how it's happening. But a fancy diagram explains nothing because it contains no actual information.

Do you have any objective evidence or explanation without using terms like "relative gravitational wind" of the actual physics behind atmonauti?

Dave

[stratostar 5]

Gee Dave.....Welcome to the stupid club......

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Vins 0]

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Basically it's all freeflying. Freeflying does not mean either sitfly or head down, freeflying is exactly that: free flying.

With all respect for Freefly, I think Freefly is Freefly, Freestyle is Freestyle, Skysurf is Skysurf, Relative Work is Relative Work, Atmonauti is Atmonauti. Why exists many disiplines if are the same things?

At the beginning Freefly was only head down and sitfly.
Than tracking jumps bacame Freefly, then angled flight (that at the beginning was called Atmonauti only) became Freefly, than belly jumps became Freefly and tomorrow will be the same for the new stuffs.
For me the problem isn't that all it's called Freefly but to think that it's all Freefly is a brake for the evolution. Infact if I want promote Atmonauti as discipline, someone want stop me because it's only Freefly. I'm not agree.

This definition is absolutly autoreferenced and if one tell me that does Freefly, believe me, I don't know what's he does!

In South Africa Atmonauti is a separate disipline officially recognized and this year they'll dispute atmo in the Nationals. For this reason Marco Ciocca (South African) have opened many topics about this discipline. If you like or not in his country that is, a discipline and for him it's normal to debate this argument, to diffuse the correct informations, to explane all about safety, training, rules, games, as any people do for own favourite discipline.

In Italy (my country) the debate is hot and in a poll on Paracadutismo.it (the most popular italian website), skydivers have voted pro-discipline.

But some people say it's non necessary. Sure, it's Freefly.
Many thanks guys!

The mentality that any stuff that exits from an airplane is Freefly stops the evolution, not the opposit.

I'd like you see a video of experimental Atmo-Relative-Work. You can see docks, star and flower formations exits directly from airplane in grips and fly in the angle (never seen before):
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3CruRP-yM
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=xib_0k5CrSM

We do in home DZ of Marco ang Gi (in Italy) ARW2-4 as local/social event. Why can't I disput Atmonauti as regular disipline with sponsors, articles in magazines, etc?
Because it's only Frefly?
Let me say once again, I'm not agree.

Vins

[mciocca 0]

MNEALTX,

You make no sense with your comments. i dont think you understand the concepts very well as you still aren't grasping whats being put forward.

Let me repeat what you still have not understood.

1) in head down we are in freefall, with our bodies perfectly aligned with the direction of fall when falling down the "tube". there is a straight line from the head through our bodies in the direction we are moving. We do not create any airfoil shape in head down.

2) In atmonauti, we use angle to create forward movement through the air, which creates a relative wind that strike the head first and travels towards the feet, as in head down. HOWEVER, the difference here is that emphasis is place on the shape/form of the body, so as to create a curvature across the top of the body which the air has to travel a further distance across at a faster speed than the air traveling across the bottom, which creates lift. You say "Hmm///sounds like spilling air to me..", if you stand by that statement, im sorry to say, you dont have a grasp of atmonauti and/or the principles of lift.

3) you say "if lift is lift why aren't the HD folks getting pulled off the fall line by it?"... My answer to you is simple, and if you read the last email i posted closely you would note that ive already answered this for you. In head down the form of the body is not an airfoil shape, as in atmo.

4) It is possible to take up the airfoil shape travelling perpendicular to the ground and utilising the relative wind over the airfoil be pulled across the ground in the direction of the low pressure, HOWEVER, we are sacrificing way too much altitude at 90 degrees to achieve any significant amount of lift to INCREASE SIGNIFICANTLY our FF time, thus in Atmonauti we do so at angles of around 10 - 60 degrees, or more frequently 45 degrees.

The Sky's Our Playground

[mciocca 0]

Heya Pilotdave,

As with anything new there's always going to be the unbelievable aspect to it, and its normal to question these statements as true and factual and ask for evidence. Like when we first discovered the world was not flat, but a sphere.

New terms in skydiving such as "custom tube". "lift" etc are going to be contested initially by people who do not yet have a grasp of what is being presented, as these are completely new terms, unlike anything we've ever know about freefall/skydiving.

That is why we are taking our time to discuss and present these principles to the skydiving family (our community). We strongly believe that this is to the benefit of our sport in general, and will go a long way in bringing new people to our sport and/or retain the ones who are growing tired of throwing money at difficult forms of our much loved sport - 3d freefall being one of these (i want to refer to freeflying, which is not flying at all, as 3-dimensional freefall).

The reason for coining this term is there is way too much confusion in our sport where everything is now falling under the auspice of Freeflying. Everything. Even FS, Wingsuiting and Atmonauti. Soon we'll probably see the first signs of "canopy piloting is aslo freeflying...".

Im going to focus on this term again: 3-dimesnional freefall, to include head up, head down, back, belly and transitions in 3 axis.

Once we agree that its always been FALLING, and we teach this to all our first jumpers (the relative wind is FROM BELOW etc etc), then we can start talking about new forms of skydiving such as Atmonauti and Wingsuiting, which are not classical freefall disciplines whatsoever. They require a brand new set of skills, understanding and techniques for them to be efficient. There are a new set of safety standards which are not applicable in freefall down the tube. We need to recognize the need to formalise these new disciplines for these reasons.

Once we also agree that freefall is one thing, and that generating lift (whether large or small amounts of it) is another - we can start to appreciate the beauty of Atmonauti in that it affords us longere ff times, we exit miles from the dz, we use our bodies as airfoils and do our damndest to overcome the effects of gravity by taking it into our own hands to do something about it. For the first time humans can fly. And not only do they fly, but they can build large linked formtions, transition around 3 axis into different body positions that require a true understanding of lift while doing so, is slow and safe, easy to get into and challenging to grow into for those that love a challenge.

Im glad to hear you would be interested to get instructionals in Atmonauti and try it out. For sure you will achieve amazing things with this wonderful discipline which is unlike traditional ff in that:

a) Its very dynamic
b) It utilises a "custom" tube at the selected angle of flight which for the first time we as skydivers can control,
c) It greatly increases freefall time
d) You're flying, not merely falling, and its possible without the use of strap-on equipment! Just your body, and thats it!

The best form of evidence is for you to try it out, and when you're hitting speeds of 100 mph, 90 mph, 80mph you'll be amazed. All this while doing multiple docks and transitions in a multitude of different axis.

For more info go to atmonauti.com

The Sky's Our Playground

[mnealtx 0]

Hey, you've got every right to be proud of your 'new' discipline, but that doesn't make the laws of aerodynamics invalid.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mciocca 0]

All i say is come along and lets have a blast up in the sky together flying the angle, and you'll have a great time doing the Atmo!

Hope to see you around bro

The Sky's Our Playground

[DJL 232]

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All i say is come along and lets have a blast up in the sky together flying the angle, and you'll have a great time doing the Atmo!

Hope to see you around bro

I agree with you, I'm sure it's fun. I just have yet to hear anyone with a formal education in aerodynamics agree with your explanation.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[mciocca 0]

The only facts we have is the relative wind perpendicular to direction of flight (eg 45 deg), the extended freefall time (50% more than fs, double Freefly), the distances covered (2,5 - 4 km from 14000ft), the inability for trackers to keep with the formation (falling away and behind), the ability to fly with wingsuiters (see footaqe/pics) etc.

All this and still the ability to fly docks, turn points, fly formations, RW (ARW) in all dimensions.

We also have the rigs that lift up and FORWARDS against the direction of flight (see pics/footage) suggesting the low pressure zone, and experts which agree human bodies (all objects) can fly if the relative wind breaks over an airfoil shaped body (which in our case does not have propulsion and thus sacrifices altitude - by taking up angle to produce the relative wind - to generate lift).

Im sure that in the near future we will produce more significant documented (tunnel) info to verify all of this - in the meanwhile...leets have a blast doing it!

The Sky's Our Playground

[LouDiamond 1]

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the ability to fly with wingsuiters

This is exactly what I have been talking about in this and the other thread in the instructors forum. Preposterous claims such as this one, which is an absolute falsehood, do not help your cause. Before you go on to tell me how it has been done, let me say that I can fly my wingsuit relative to people who are in freefall on their bellies and even on their head. However, those same people CANNOT fly relative to me when I am flying my wingsuit in the manner in which it was designed to be flown and that includes people doing ATMO. Do you really think people take the whole ATMO thing seriously when they read/hear statements such as this one that they know to be false?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Cantoral 1]

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the ability to fly with wingsuiters

Great! I don't have to buy a WS and learn to fly it...I just need learn Atmo!

[mciocca 0]

Why does that statement bother you? You've just admited to it yourself, in that you do it too...

The point is that we do fly with our friends with wingsuits. Frequently...taking docks and having a blast. Its awesome. Skydiving has truly become a "hybrid" mix of disciplines.

Its a very enjoyable way to lay back and have some fun. And why not? Whoever said we shouldnt mix it up?

This is NOT to say that Atmonauts and Wingsuiters have the same efficiency in the sky. Its clear that wingsuiting and the art and science with which the suits have been designed and developed is outstanding!

The point however is that in freefall a wingsuiter would have to be in freefall too to fall proximate to a skydiver, whereas in atmo a degree of flight is truly achievalbe...and i think thats truly amazing.

The Sky's Our Playground

[LouDiamond 1]

Do I really have to explain this to you? It's called a lie, a falsehood, an untrue statement, a deception and in plain English.... bullshit, albeit with a sugar coating. From the grossly erroneous aerodynamics, to the nonsensical use of words and outright tripe. The old saying "you can sugar coat a turd but it's still a turd" is very applicable to what you have presented in this and the other thread. I think the majority of people see this in the same light and see it for what it is when presented in this manner. However, much like dealing with a brain washed person or a mentally ill person, I am certain that what ever proof is presented to you that contridicts your statements about ATMO will fall on deaf ears. What next, if you do ATMO you can fly relative and dock with the space shuttle?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[pilotdave 0]

Geez... He's not gonna share any of his relative gravitational wind with you!

Dave

[mciocca 0]

***Preposterous claims such as this one, which is an absolute falsehood, do not help your cause.

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We can hardly say that the wingsuiter in this image is maxing it (rightly so) however its clear that the 2-way Atmo/Wingsuit hybrid is flying and not plummeting.... Absolute falsehood.. Not so sure...

The Sky's Our Playground

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[mciocca 0]

***Do I really have to explain this to you? It's called a lie, a falsehood, an untrue statement, a deception and in plain English.... bullshit, albeit with a sugar coating. From the grossly erroneous aerodynamics, to the nonsensical use of words and outright tripe. The old saying "you can sugar coat a turd but it's still a turd" is very applicable to what you have presented in this and the other thread

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As a moderator, I would have thought your use of foul language would not be acceptable or pardonable.

You seem to insist on it though.

Are you unable to accept - and are you so threatened by atmo - that whats being presented is continuely met with nothing more than foul language and insult?

You need to watch your mouth.

The Sky's Our Playground

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[LouDiamond 1]

I can show you pictures of me flying in my wingsuit relative to a belly flyer. So by YOUR logic that must also mean that belly fliers create lift just like people doing ATMO do.

Honestly, if you and the others would just drop the bullshit aerodynamics and smoke and mirror show, people might be a little more understanding and take you seriously.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[LouDiamond 1]

There is no rule agaisnt the use of adult language. The way I type my responses out here, is how I would say it if you were standing in front of me. I used/use those words because it seems that my and others attempts to point out the obvious to you has fallen on deaf ears, so I broke it down into simple, commonly used descriptives that are often heard even on TV these days. I am not one to let the PC mentality overide my inner voice to call a spade a spade when applicable. As far as I can discern, no one has insulted you in this thread. There have been instances where the truth has been explained in straight forward and direct terms,none of which could be considered a PA. Which word was it that offended you?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mciocca 0]

***I can show you pictures of me flying in my wingsuit relative to a belly flyer

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I think you should post that picture bro. I wouldnt be bragging about "flying" next to a belly flyer in freefall tho.

Whatever the case, Im sure the image I posted clearly indicates the fun to be had in the sky crossing the discipline barrier i.e. atmo and wingsuiting.

You should want to support this cause, and any cause, that benefits our sport and it's growth, or that brings newcomers to our doorsteps. Its to your benefit as much as mine.

The Sky's Our Playground

[Ramatos 0]

atmonauti haven't changed the laws of aerodynamic.
atmo can generate lift, due to parafoil, angle of incidence and difference
of pessure between intrados and extrados.
I respect wingsuiters but atmo flight hasn't need uncomfortable suit for
fly, we need only our body.
see you end good lift.

[mciocca 0]

Heya pilotdave..

To explain the term "relative gravitational wind/air":

Its a term i use to discribe the relative wind (stationary air that we strike as we move through it) when in freefall "down" the tube.

The relative wind in atmo is at the selected angle of flight, striking the head first as we fly.

The Sky's Our Playground

[Vins 0]

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Before you go on to tell me how it has been done, let me say that I can fly my wingsuit relative to people who are in freefall on their bellies and even on their head. However, those same people CANNOT fly relative to me when I am flying my wingsuit in the manner in which it was designed to be flown and that includes people doing ATMO. Do you really think people take the whole ATMO thing seriously when they read/hear statements such as this one that they know to be false?

You fly with wings, sure that you can fly with atmonauts, but it doesn't means nothing about atmonauti.

It's not the game wingsuit VS atmo.

Take a breath an repeat

[pilotdave 0]

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The relative wind in atmo is at the selected angle of flight, striking the head first as we fly.

And that's where I think you're mistaken about what goes on. You can select the angle you point your body, but you can't independently select the angle of the relative wind.

The human body is a terrible airfoil. Even airplanes generate a very small percentage of their lift purely from the airfoil shape of their wings. Proof of that is the symmetric airfoil. Aerobatic planes fly just fine with 0-camber wings.

I'd love it if you guys got some help from someone with a background in aerodynamics and studied what's really going on in atmonauti. I've (previously) heard claims that atmonauti gets more distance than tracking over a fixed vertical distance. If that was true, we should ALL be doing atmonauti at the end of every skydive to get away from each other. If you agree with the claim, then it's worth really studying. I think you guys use aerodynamic terms to describe what you feel, but I don't get the impression that you have truly studied the physics going on.

Dave

[LouDiamond 1]

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Before you go on to tell me how it has been done, let me say that I can fly my wingsuit relative to people who are in freefall on their bellies and even on their head. However, those same people CANNOT fly relative to me when I am flying my wingsuit in the manner in which it was designed to be flown and that includes people doing ATMO. Do you really think people take the whole ATMO thing seriously when they read/hear statements such as this one that they know to be false?

You fly with wings, sure that you can fly with atmonauts, but it doesn't means nothing about atmonauti.

It's not the game wingsuit VS atmo.

Take a breath an repeat

Vins, I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that the above response is due to what appears to be a language barrier/difference. Your response to my statement makes no sense and you apparently don't understand the point I was making in that statement in response to marco's wingsuit comment. At this point, I am not going to even attempt to explain it again because I don't think it can be broken down into simpler terms without going on a tangent. All I can say is that you totally missed the point.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[DJL 232]

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***Preposterous claims such as this one, which is an absolute falsehood, do not help your cause.

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We can hardly say that the wingsuiter in this image is maxing it (rightly so) however its clear that the 2-way Atmo/Wingsuit hybrid is flying and not plummeting.... Absolute falsehood.. Not so sure...

That's a picture of someone holding onto a wingsuit flyer's chest strap. Can't really tell much else.

Oh, and their gear matches.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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