Will I Break My Legs?

[Zennie 0]

If I jump a Safire loaded at 1.2?
I've got about 30 jumps. I'm about 185 out the door and have been jumping a Sabre 170. I can land it standing up pretty consistently now.
Since I'm building a rig, most people that know me have been recommending a 150 sq ft canopy. I was looking at a Spectre, but they're really hard to come by used. So I've been considering a Safire. Sabres are out. I'm sick of getting pounded by them and I don't want to spend my jump wondering if I packed it right.
I'm pretty confident that I can fly a Sabre 150, but I'm just wondering if a Safire would be too hot. I know a Stilletto at that size would be too much for me, as would a Crossfire, but a Safire? I dunno.
Thoughts?
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[Geoff 0]

I went from a Spectre 135 (loaded at about 1.4) to a Safire 129 when I had about 380 jumps. It seemed a LOT faster, especially in turns, but also in straight flight. I had to be really careful for the first 50 jumps or so.
I think you'd be seriously increasing your chances of injury going to a Safire at 1.2 with your jump numbers.
I read (so it must be true!) that Icarus measure the area of their canopies differently to PD, which means that they're actually a bit smaller than a PD canopy with the same placarded size.
Used Sabres can be a really good deal, and if you get a large or 'pocket' slider made the openings can be OK. Talk to your rigger or PD before you try anything, though.
Just MHO. Hope it helps.
Geoff

[mattb 0]

Zennie -
Can you demo a Safire? Some dropzones rent them as student gear. I learned on a Safire and I recently bought one as my first canopy loaded at about 1.3:1. The trickiest part about Safires is making sure you flare enough on the landing. Once you "get it" it isn't tough at all but the other canopies I've jumped (Stilleto, Spectre, Triathalon) have all been easier to land because you didn't have to flare 100%.
my two cents,
-mob

[ramon 0]

My first chute was a triathlon loaded at 1.28-1.3. That is a little high, but it is a very forgiving parachute to load like that (couldn't fit 190 in my container). I was fine.
The Safire is tricky to land and flare. Scott (of Scott Grip Fame and Dale at Spaceland) both have Safires. Dale was busting his ass all weekend on his and Scott spent 100 jumps learning how to land his and now he wants a crossfire. He found a stilleto (not recommended for you) much easier to land. He talked to Icarus and they seem to be thinking about re-designing they way they trim the lines.
Derek has a big Safire that he lans with no problem (he has 2000 jumps), but they seem to have a very deep flare that causes a couple of hard landings if not timed right.
There are lots of used Triathlons and Sabres out there.
Everyone I know that has a pocket slider on their sabre seems to have very nice openings.
My 2 cents
bloo skies
Ramon

[maretus 0]

No you won't if you flare it correctly. ;) But seriously, I had a Sabre, loaded 1.2, as a first canopy and didn't have any problems what so ever. I can't say anything about Safire because I haven't tried one but the wingloading sounds pretty good. As we are talking about hard openings on Sabre, I had one very hard opening in 170 jumps and I presume that was my own packing error. So I would definetively give thumbs up for Sabre as a first canopy.

[Cacophony 0]

I agree with maretus. I have around 170 sabre jumps loaded at 1.0. I have only been slammed once and it wasn't very hard but it was completely my fault. It was because I S-folded the thing like 5 times when I was trying to get it in the bag. It was pretty new at the time. Now I can stick it in a bag half the size of the first bag and it still opens great. I don't have a pocketed slider either. It is a great canopy and will give you some good, safe performance until you are ready to downsize. I'm thinking I'm gonna stay with my Sabre until the end of this season, then I'm going to maybe a 150 or 135 of something else. Oh forget that, I'll just go straight to a VX 60. J/K.
Safe landings,
Alex D-23912

[Slowfaller 0]

IMHO you will have no problem w/ the safire except for the landing like everyone has alread mentioned. FLARE and you'll be fine. I think it was my AFP level 10 ( so i had 10 solos and 2 tandems ) i was jumping a safire 150 w/ an exit weight of 160. Just be smart and safe and dont forget to pull those toggles all the way down to land. You'll like the safire, the turns are awesome and you can surf if you try to.
blue skies, cold beer
chris

[Zennie 0]

Thanks for all your input gang. It's kind of what I was expecting. But it may be all a moot point because I've got a line on a killer deal for a used Sabre that I don't think I can turn down.
Guess I'll just have to learn how to pack 'em right.
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[SkySlut 0]

If you are having major problems with the Sabre (I havent been whacked yet...knock, knock) give a shout over to Scott Miller from PD. This guy knows everything about canopies, packing them, flying them, etc. He may be able to give you some tips on not getting whacked.
"I'll jump anything!"

[cobaltdan 0]

if you have no problems on a sabre at 1.2 you should not have any problems on a safire at the same loading. but keep in mind they flare differently and i have found stall point on safires to be pretty high up in the control range (my experiences is with heavier loadings though).
may i also suggest that if you are a good pilot under a sabre you might want to try a cobalt at a suitable loading. a loading of 1.2 on a cobalt will give you about the equivalent loading of 1.0 on a sabre with regards to foward speed. turning speed will be a bit snapier, glide is flatter and flare more powerful. keep in mind what makes them such stable, controllable easy to handle canopies at light loadings is the reason they are doing so well at higher loadings.
check out the recent article in parachutist.
sincerely,
dan
atair
www.extremefly.com

[Cacophony 0]

Hey, I see you are plugging your canopy there cobaltdan. I was under the impression that a cobalt was a higher performance canopy like a stiletto. Loading a Sabre at 1.0 is the same as loading a Cobalt at 1.2???? That doesn't sound right to me. I am no canopy expert but that sounds a little backwards, even if it is just in forward speed. When you throw in snappier turns that will make a bad combination for a low timer, probably even myself. I am just trying to get a grasp on your biased perspective here.
Safe landings,
Alex D-23912

[maretus 0]

I totally agree with Cacophony. No offense, cobaltdan, but I too am under impression that Cobalt is a high performance elliptical canopy and therefor it is NOT suitable as a first canopy. It really can't be compared with Sabre even if it's loaded lighter. I know you are trying to sell your products but to sell a high performance elliptical to newcomer as a first canopy just sounds irresponsible to me.

[ramon 0]

Several of us have discussed this with Dan and I think I know where he is coming from, but since his parachute is labeled "Double Diamond for experts only", it is misleading.
The main (number one) characteristic affecting a ZP ram air canopies performance is loading. Some canopies marketed as high performance simply perform like a normal canopy at low wing loading. It was my opinion that lightly loaded elipticals (not semi-eliptical, but more pronounced) was not recommended because of higher possibility of instability in turbulence. It may be that the Cobalt (although marketed as high performance) is very docile when lightly loaded. I have jumped a very lightly loaded stilleto and it was a cream puff although I would not reccomend that for a lower time jumper (really relative anyway). The cobalt may infact be more stable lightly loaded than a stilleto which has a pronounced curve on the leading edge. The aspect ratio (length/width) can also affect stabilty at light loadings. A seven cell which is low aspect ratio (more square than rectangular when compared to a 9 cell) should be more stable in turbulence.
A samurai is pretty stable when lightly loaded also. I jumped one at about 1.25 and it was like a student canopy.
Also a sabre or a Safire when highly loaded will really fly fast. Some canopies really come into their purpose when highly loaded (FX, ALPHA, Cobalt), but lightly loading them may or may not make a noticible difference in performance to a low time jumper.
Whether or not a Cobalt at 1.2 flies the same as a sabre at 1.0 that is the realm of aredynamicists, but I myself think of loading mainly. One thing for sure is that a Cobalt is very easy to flare and land, But I never had any problems on a Sabre. A samurai at 1.5 or a Safire was trickier.
A person will get sick of their first canopy after a year or two (depending on how much they jump) and so I recommend getting a used main and jumping your buddies equipment when you get a chance to see how othe parachutes fly with your ability. When you are ready to downsize, get your self the exact main that you want (custom colors etc and have fun).
be safe
Ramon

[skybytch 259]

Caution - rampant conservatism ahead, read at your own risk!

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I can land it standing up pretty consistently now.

If you can't land it standing up EVERY TIME regardless of the wind conditions (into the wind, cross wind, down wind, no wind, light wind, strong wind...) then you are NOT ready to downsize.
Personally I'd recommend doing 100 or so more jumps on a 170, then consider downsizing. You can break yourself in many different places at any wingloading, any number of jumps, regardless of which canopy you choose to jump; but in my opinion your first couple of hundred jumps are when you are most likely to do so.
How long will it take you to do 100 jumps? I'll bet you can do that before the end of summer. Why not spend the next 100 jumps getting a solid grounding in canopy flight and more experience in different conditions and dz's under a 170 whatever before moving down to something faster and more responsive?
pull and flare,
lisa

[alpenglow 0]

A Safire is just fine to fly at your experience level, but only under the right conditions. For the first fifty jumps or so on it, you'll want to stay out of high winds and no winds. Land away from others, too. Avoiding a canopy collision with a last minute turn under an unfamiliar and relatively fast canopy will most likely hurt you. Learn how to clear lineovers from people who fly high performance nine-cells. Know what you can clear, and what needs to be chopped. You're bound to get a line over your first or second cells every now and then.
The trick to landing a Safire, or any Icarus canopy, the first few times around is to wrap the steering lines once around your hands. I don't know where you're at, but if it's warm enough, do a hop and pop from full altitude, and just practice basic toggle turns and flaring. It gets really repetitious, but it will be worth it to take the few extra minutes when you finally get down to the ground. The Safire's pretty forgiving... just wrap the lines up once or twice to get a "PD" flare. That's what I did for my first Crossfire jumps.
At thirty jumps, I was loaded at 1.27 on a Spectre 150. The Spectre's really forgiving, and does take a lot to flare. IMO, at thirty jumps, if you want a 150, get a Spectre. I've actually seen quite a few used ones on here, and elsewhere on the web. The Spectre can actually build up a lot of speed from a front riser 90, but will also keep you alive.
For at least the next eighty - one hundred jumps, you should play with front risers on every jump while up in the air, and then stay off them when you get to the ground. Once you're comfortable with riser movement, try front riser 90s for the next four hundred jumps before you move into anything above that. Being that you won't (hopefully) be swooping for quite some time, the Spectre is the ideal canopy for the next few hundred jumps.
^ My thoughts ^

[sangiro 4]

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If you can't land it standing up EVERY TIME regardless of the wind conditions (into the wind, cross wind, down wind, no wind, light wind, strong wind...) then you are NOT ready to downsize.

I know that you've already decided on the Sabre but for future reference, let me just support Lisa in this. I have a Safire 149. Safire landings can be hard to get used to or figure out in the beginning. I spent a lot of time running like the Roadrunner! Be sure you can stand-up all your landings before you make a downsizing decision like this. Be safe. Have fun.
...btw, did you find your Sabre on Dropzone.com?
Safe swoops
Sangiro

[Zennie 0]

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...btw, did you find your Sabre on Dropzone.com?

No but I did find my Vector III from the classifieds. When I brought it by the DZ a got hit with a bunch of offers for used Sabres.
I jumped a 150 twice today and both landings were sweet. Felt like I had far more control for the same conditions than I did with the 170. One of those was a test jump that I'm gonna go with.
But anyhoo, thanks bossman for making a really sweet deal on a Vector possible! You da man! ------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie