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drop13

What AAD would be OK?

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Ok folks, this is what it comes down to: You.
You are responsible for your own actions, you have to do something to save your life everytime you leave the aircraft. If it is your choice to equip your rig with an AAD "just in case" - then that is your choice. As far as which AAD do you choose? Again, it's your choice. Talk to jumpers, do some research, make an informed decision. Every AAD has it's pros and cons.
Yes, there are a number of fatalities where an AAD may have saved the person, BUT, in the majority of those cases, if the person would have followed proper emergency procedures, they would have lived also. There is no replacement for the human brain. Do not depend on these devices you equip yourself with, they can and do fail. Fly like you don't have them.

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<< Yes, there are a number of fatalities where an AAD may have saved the person, BUT, in the majority of those cases, if the person would have followed proper emergency procedures, they would have lived also. There is no replacement for the human brain. Do not depend on these devices you equip yourself with, they can and do fail. Fly like you don't have them.>>
I jump a cypres so that in the event I am incapacitated in freefall (injured or unconscious, for example) and therefore unable to deploy a parachute on my own, I will have at least a chance of surviving. I have been at a dz where a person was knocked out after a freefall collision and fell to her death. This woman, a very experienced skydiver, owned 3 rigs and the one she was jumping was the only one which was not cypres equipped. The incident left a lot of us on the ground wondering why.
The cypres was not designed to save the a@@ of some moronic low pull artist.
And I hate this part of the argument- people do not use the cypres as a replacement for their brains, as in, it's OK if I forget to pull, this little device will do it for me. If anyone out there thinks that way, they should take up bowling instead of skydiving!
"fly like you don't have it" is misleading. You need to be aware of it, because having one can affect your emergency procedures, and the decisions you make in freefall. If you forget about your cypres and lose altitude awareness (or find yourself low for another reason), and go for your main at say 1500', you have put yourself in the firing range and are at risk for having 2 canopies out. If you find yourself that low, and remember that you have a cypres, you might just go for the reserve instead.

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And I hate this part of the argument- people do not use the cypres as a replacement for their brains, as in, it's OK if I forget to pull, this little device will do it for me. If anyone out there thinks that way, they should take up bowling instead of skydiving!

While I would like to agree, if you check out THIS PAGE and download the CYPRES saves .pdf file you might take a different perspective on it.
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If you forget about your cypres and lose altitude awareness (or find yourself low for another reason), and go for your main at say 1500', you have put yourself in the firing range and are at risk for having 2 canopies out. If you find yourself that low, and remember that you have a cypres, you might just go for the reserve instead.

While I agree with this there is another thing to take into consideration. Stress. If you find yourself in a high-speed situation as you stated above are you going to instinctively go for the main since it is the more "normal" response? While I would like to think if I were in this situation I would go for the reserve. It would probibally come down to actually being in the situation before you will know what handle you will pull for sure.
Craig

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Craig,
Its interesting reading for sure, but my point was that people who jump a cypres are not intentionally complacent.
Did any of these people say, "oh, I wasn't worried, I didn't pull my reserve because I knew my cypres was there"?, or were they just relieved that even though they f@#$%^ up, they were still alive?
The report also clearly indicates that stress and panic have an effect on our actions, and mistakes do happen.
I keep reading and hearing statements like, "oh, I jump like its not there" referring both to a cypres and RSL, and while the intent may be to say, "I don't rely on it to replace my emergency procedures" that's not what is being said, and there is a difference. Be aware that these devices are on you rig, and what they do. That awareness may save your life.
Ok off my soap box.....
Blue ones!

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Its interesting reading for sure, but my point was that people who jump a cypres are not intentionally complacent. Did any of these people say, "oh, I wasn't worried, I didn't pull my reserve because I knew my cypres was there"?, or were they just relieved that even though they f@#$%^ up, they were still alive?

I realized I could have worded my responce a little bit better. I didn't mean to imply that if someone jumps with an AAD they became more complacent with their procedures. I was trying to say that while there are jumpers that jump with an AAD and properly perform their procedures and save themselves, there are also documented "saves" where the jumper has performed minimal procedures, gave up, and just "waited for my AAD to fire". This is the aspect that worries others, as well as myself. In short, would certain AAD equipped jumpers be a little more "diligent" if they knew they had no back-up?
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I keep reading and hearing statements like, "oh, I jump like its not there" referring both to a cypres and RSL, and while the intent may be to say, "I don't rely on it to replace my emergency procedures" that's not what is being said, and there is a difference. Be aware that these devices are on you rig, and what they do. That awareness may save your life.

I believe that you should "jump like its not there", but in the aspect of NOT relying on it to save you like you have said. To the (broad term, sorry).."expierenced" jumpers this mostly what is interpreted when they hear it used, but to others it may be taken differently and thus why were having this conversation. Not to put anyone here in any catagory, just generally speaking. I often have wondered myself how many jumpers don't know all the apects of their equipment. When will their AAD become functional? When will it cease to function? At what altitude is their a risk of reserve activation above the advertised/set firing height? What are situations where an AAD might create more problems?When should you chose to disconnect an RSL if so equipped. Like wildblue said "make an informed decision". I belive these debates and opinions shared help to see all the sides and help to make that desision more informed, which is good for everyone. JMHO
Craig

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I agree that complacency is a problem in this sport. I just don't agree with the argument that the availability and use of AADs adds to it. You could argue the opposite just as easily, because one sign of complacency is the "it will never happen to me" attitude. I've been in this sport long enough to know that "it" can happen to anyone. And "it" can be anything from being knocked out in freefall, to panicking during a high speed malfunction and not responding properly or quickly enough to save yourself.
Just my opinion. The fact is that some skydivers are more "diligent" than others, with or without a cypres.
Like you said, these discussions are good for getting all the opinions out there.

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While all of you bring up rather good information the one thing that does bother me is (Cypress or nothing). all AAD's are tested extensively. You can't manufacture something that doesn't work in a sport like ours. Not for long anyway. I saw a sentinal 2000 save a no pull in 1976. Most of us didn't jump with what we called an AO (automatic opener) back then, I'm not saying its the best only that it worked. If you can't afford a cypress and can afford something else, any chance is better then no chance. This is a last ditch effort, all else has already failed. So if you can, put something on your rig. For info I jump a cypress because I can afford it and if I couldn't I would have something else, but I would have something.

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Did any of these people say, "oh, I wasn't worried, I didn't pull my reserve because I knew my cypres was there"?

Sadly enough, I have heard this line, almost word for word. They couldn't find the PC, and instead of pulling silver, they waited for aad to fire. Should this person go take up bowling? Absolutely.
While I agree with you that the majority of jumpers out there are smart enough to do things for themselves, and only count on an aad to save them in case they are unable to save themselves, there are people who don't have that attitude. I also believe some people do things they wouldn't do if they didn't have an aad. That's what I mean by "fly like you don't have it" and why I think "I don't rely on it to replace my emergency procedures" isn't a good enough statement.
As far as changing your emergency procedures when using an aad, if I found myself blowing past 1500 ft, I'd go right for the reserve, aad or not. I completely agree that people do need to remember that it is there, and all that goes with that (turning it on, when to turn it off, etc) but they should plan their jumps and make their jumps like it isn't there.

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