MikeMcLean 0 #101 April 1, 2004 QuoteNo body glued your ass to your desk chair. Don't like it? Leave! Your 1.5 posts per day compared to my 0.2 posts per day would indicate that your ass is more firmly in your desk chair than mine.It wouldn't hurt you to think like a fucking serial killer every once in a while - just for the sake of prevention Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #102 April 1, 2004 I'm not the one complaining.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #103 April 1, 2004 There really is no point in elimination Talk Back. All that will happen now is people will start posting more in "General Skydiving Discussion" which will now be really busy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #104 April 1, 2004 Mailin, don't you go giving away any secrets now. Girl, geesh..... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mailin 0 #105 April 1, 2004 Hey I tried my best, really - its censored as much as possible without compromising my point Don't worry girly, your secrets safe with me! JenArianna Frances Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeMcLean 0 #106 April 1, 2004 QuoteI'm not the one complaining. Funny, I wasn't complaining either. I posted an opinion, you posted a one-line response that you presented as "fact". Note that nowhere did I complain, not about talk-back being shut down, not about the site, not about anything -- ok, maybe my comment about Crazy Ivan's incessant fascination with being a repost cop could count as a complaint -- but other than that, no. Edited to add "my comment"It wouldn't hurt you to think like a fucking serial killer every once in a while - just for the sake of prevention Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harksaw 0 #107 April 1, 2004 Here's the followup to my solution: In the talkback forum, post the attached picture to remind everyone to keep things in perspective: __________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #108 April 1, 2004 Heh, I was JUST about to post that. Funny shit. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #109 April 1, 2004 QuoteLook, if you want more altitude, you have to flash the pilot right...just apply that here girls. If you really want talkback back, start sending your photos. I'll review them first [email protected] LOL -I'm sorry, but that's just funny as hell...~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmanpilot 0 #110 April 1, 2004 QuoteIt's my belief that anyone who spends a lot of time here should donate out of the goodness of their heart until the site pays for itself through advertising. That's a good point. I guess it's none of my business since it's a private site, but does the combination of advertising and donations cover the direct costs of keeping the site up?_________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #111 April 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteThat seems like the only reasonable compromise to me. You don't get it. There doesn't need to be a compromise. This is Sangiro's place. He can do whatever he wants with it...even shut it down. Fine, then shut it down. Or, charge for it - but don't create a community and then pull it away just because. And if someone wants to donate, they shouldn't be guilted in to it. Because everyone keeps telling me I need to donate, I won't. Talkback is fluff. It is not needed. In fact, this entire site isn't needed for skydiving - the sport will go on either way. It would be interesting to see talkback go away for a year or so and see what it does for traffic and participation in the skydiving forums. Also, a bonfire is not needed at a DZ either, but it helps create a community. I know this weekend that for the four or five hours the fire was going more than skydiving was talked about (*gasp* someone talked about politics). I know I got annoyed at one of the people around the fire and I just walked away for a while, and then came back later. There is a community here now, and the majority can't participate because of a handful of people. Do you think a DZO would ground the airplane because one person pissed him off? We don't need more rules, we don't need over moderation - what we need is respect. Respect from the users towards the rest of the community, and respect from the moderators towards the users as well. There are too many people on here starting to act like skygods (and it usually seems to be those with almost no jumps). And there are ways to be blunt in telling someone they are being stupid and going to kill themself without being a total asshole about it....and that person may be more likely to listen. If the moderators are taxed - maybe Sangiro should recruit more of them. I've been on this board since the older style forums -I've seen it grow, and seen some very positive results from the forums - including talkback. I've also seen the growing pains, and right now I feel the real problem on this site is the newbies giving advice....and I don't believe there is any real way to prevent this. Much like a real DZ, you can't stop everyone from being stupid. Want a suggestion? Get rid of PW ratings. It was fun once upon a time with a few hundred of us on here to see the occasional PW thread - even Sangiro created one once upon a time. Now we have people with 0-100 jumps making 100+ posts a day just so they are not in "newbie" status....then they venture into the skydiving forums and start giving out advice._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #112 April 1, 2004 "It would be interesting to see talkback go away for a year or so and see what it does for traffic and participation in the skydiving forums." I too think it might be interesting to see if the traffic in the other areas of dropzone.com has increased since TB was suspended. Personally I think this sabbatical is a good thing while folk cool off, but its going to get hot again as the US run their elections in the coming months. I'm not sure I could put up with 8 months of Kerry/Bush slanging. Things like gun/religion/US foreign policy threads are as old as dropzone.com itself. Its when people take it all personally that unpleasantness bubbles up, and I don't know if there is an effective way to suppress this in an open forum. It may be that HH could try a "rubber room" forum, if you want to argue, as opposed to discuss, the thread goes into the rubber room, if it gets out of hand, it gets blitzed by moderators, and no explanation is necessary, or provided. The rubber room could be cleared out every now and then, keeping talkback for civilised discussions. If you post in the rubber room you would have to expect that things can get a little wild, and if you don't like it you don't go there. I know this is what the Pub/Chat provides, but I can't access the pub from the work PC, and I actually have a life when I leave the office, so generally don't post from home. I don't know if this will work, or if HH wants this shit on his porch. Its the users that make dropzone.com a vibrant living resource, I think it is a shame that its the users that may break it. I think I saw an Afrikaans word a while back which might sum those users up...Stoepkakkers.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #113 April 1, 2004 QuoteIt's my belief that a site can either (a) solict donations or (b) sell advertising, but not both. The mere fact that an ad is present and takes up a small little bit of my bandwidth and (more importantly) a small little bit of my attention is a payment from me towards the site. You don't freely make "donations" towards on-the-air broadcast TV do you? No, because you have paid for that TV via the advertising on it.* Also, note, that in either (a) or (b) case I am a customer, not a guest. The internet is a very different creature from television. The amount of advertising content that would have to be placed on a topical website like dropzone.com just to break even would probably be leathal to most lab animals. A combination of donations and advertising keeps many great sites afloat (penny-arcade.com comes to mind) and having both be benign you can get some of your money back without detracting from the site's content. a forum payment/membership model employed by somethingawful.com might be of some interest. you can lurk and read most of the forums without an account, but you must register an account to read all the forums and be able to post, which costs $10 once. There is a set of rules (which essentially enumerates, "don't be a shithead") if you violate the rules, you lose your account. you're free to make a new account, but it costs you $10. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andybr6 0 #114 April 1, 2004 Talkback is [imho] a very important aspect to this site, it allows us to learn more about each other outside of skydiving. I am more of a lurker than a poster but reading talkback is facinating. I like the political and gun threads not because i have strong feelings either way [i cant remember ever posting on a discussion over politics etc] but because they are very interesting to read. Dropzone.com attracts members from all over the world with the same interest; talkback gives those who read the threads a great insight into peoples perspectives on important issues. Clearly this is a skydiving site but if we just talked about skydiving there will still be fierce arguments, AAD vs no AAD, RSL vs no RSL etc, people like to debate over issues that they have strong opinions on. However some issues will obviously divide people more than others so i would like to make a 'suggestion' which i dont think has already been made. What about another forum under 'talkback' for 'personal politics' by that i mean religious and political affiliation, guns etc. Threads could be deleted after a given length of time; most politcal issues are topical and so by their very nature date very quickly. Lets not ruin a great site by filling up the forum that lets people make friends with highly charged political discussion that has a tendency to make enemies. A ------------------------------------------------ "All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyRamone 0 #115 April 1, 2004 Brian, You make some great and valid points. I guess we should just not have a talk back section, and then we can all read the women’s forum. Some great topics are in that room like do you get cramps when jumping with a tampon, what type of birth control do you use, my boy friend left me, yadda, yadda, yadda. I feel that if the women can talk about issues like that on a "Skydiving website" why can people not talk politics, etc. Make the Playing field fair for all, the name of the game is respect. Sometimes this place is more like a day time soap opera then a skydiving website.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sangiro 4 #116 April 1, 2004 QuoteFine, then shut it down. Or, charge for it - but don't create a community and then pull it away just because. I can quite frankly pull it away for whatever reason I like. As you just discovered. It is after all my web site. QuoteAnd if someone wants to donate, they shouldn't be guilted in to it. Because everyone keeps telling me I need to donate, I won't. Never have. You don't have to give me a penny and you're more than welcome to keep on enjoying all the benefits available to you on Dropzone.com without any guilt. Always been like that. As long as it's free, that's what it is. Free. Quote[Talkback]It is not needed. You're wrong. Something like Talk Back is in fact needed for the site. Other users here we're spot on when they said it acts as a sponge. Talk Back is a large past of what keeps all the other forums useful. QuoteIn fact, this entire site isn't needed for skydiving That is true. QuoteAlso, a bonfire is not needed at a DZ either, but it helps create a community. Exactly. Isn't community one of the things you enjoy about the DZ? QuoteThere is a community here now, and the majority can't participate because of a handful of people. Do you think a DZO would ground the airplane because one person pissed him off? But I thought you said Talk Back wasn't needed? Now you're saying closing Talkback is the equivalent of the whole "plane being grounded". It's a bad analogy. The DZO may however ban bonfires at his DZ if people keep picking up burning logs and tossing them into the fuel hangar. A DZO may also decide to close down the bar because fights keep breaking out that brings bad publicity and less jumpers to his DZ. QuoteWe don't need more rules, we don't need over moderation - what we need is respect. That's noble, and I even agree. But I'm not convinced this group is able to do that on their own on the internet. Comparing the internet to the real world is a bad place to start from. Here people are faceless, anonymous and not accountable. QuoteIf the moderators are taxed - maybe Sangiro should recruit more of them. Thought you said we don't need more moderation? QuoteI've been on this board since the older style forums I've been on here longer. QuoteWant a suggestion? Get rid of PW ratings. May be a good suggestion but will not even come close to solving the problem. People are giving way too much credit to this one feature as a contributing factor to the "post whore" problem. People PW because they like to fool around, not because they want to become an "Old Hand" Quoteeven Sangiro created one once upon a time Let's take him out back and beat the shit out of him! Quote....then they venture into the skydiving forums and start giving out advice. That's a different problem that I'd love to hear suggestions about. There's a whole conversation in the Suggestions and Feedback forum dealing with the challenge of establishing credibility online.Safe swoops Sangiro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyRamone 0 #117 April 1, 2004 Let's take him out back and beat the shit out of him! *** That is classic. Thanks, i just spit coffee all over my computer..HA-HA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deleted 0 #118 April 1, 2004 Thing is American politics is proberbly interesting if you are an American, but for the rest of the world, real, who cares? I think domestic politics from any country should stay out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeMcLean 0 #119 April 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteIt's my belief that a site can either (a) solict donations or (b) sell advertising, but not both. The mere fact that an ad is present and takes up a small little bit of my bandwidth and (more importantly) a small little bit of my attention is a payment from me towards the site. You don't freely make "donations" towards on-the-air broadcast TV do you? No, because you have paid for that TV via the advertising on it.* Also, note, that in either (a) or (b) case I am a customer, not a guest. The internet is a very different creature from television. The amount of advertising content that would have to be placed on a topical website like dropzone.com just to break even would probably be leathal to most lab animals. Not the issue, not even an issue. The profitability (or loss) that a site makes isn't relavant to the point that solicitation of donations (or membership fees) and selling advertising space should be orthogonal.It wouldn't hurt you to think like a fucking serial killer every once in a while - just for the sake of prevention Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #120 April 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteAnd if someone wants to donate, they shouldn't be guilted in to it. Because everyone keeps telling me I need to donate, I won't. Never have. You don't have to give me a penny and you're more than welcome to keep on enjoying all the benefits available to you on Dropzone.com without any guilt. Always been like that. As long as it's free, that's what it is. Free. This one comment wasn't directed towards you - but to a certain set of people that seemed to have focused on this issue recently. QuoteQuoteAlso, a bonfire is not needed at a DZ either, but it helps create a community. Exactly. Isn't community one of the things you enjoy about the DZ? Of course! Even if you do 20 jumps a weekend, that is only 20 minutes in freefall - the rest of the time on the ground and in the plane is spent being part of the community. QuoteQuoteThere is a community here now, and the majority can't participate because of a handful of people. Do you think a DZO would ground the airplane because one person pissed him off? But I thought you said Talk Back wasn't needed? Now you're saying closing Talkback is the equivalent of the whole "plane being grounded". It's a bad analogy. The DZO may however ban bonfires at his DZ if people keep picking up burning logs and tossing them into the fuel hangar. A DZO may also decide to close down the bar because fights keep breaking out that brings bad publicity and less jumpers to his DZ. Talkback is fluff - but as I mentioned in my post - it has some fun moments and it has done a good job of building a community. I would prefer it to stay, but I wouldn't cry if it didn't come back. TB is not the only place that people are causing fights - whenever the AAD threads get going, they usually end up in name calling and personal attacks. Just recently a thread about deployment methods got out of hand. QuoteQuoteWe don't need more rules, we don't need over moderation - what we need is respect. That's noble, and I even agree. But I'm not convinced this group is able to do that on their own on the internet. Comparing the internet to the real world is a bad place to start from. Here people are faceless, anonymous and not accountable. QuoteIf the moderators are taxed - maybe Sangiro should recruit more of them. Thought you said we don't need more moderation? No, we need moderation - we don't need over moderation. Adding more moderators is not over moderation, and I think you know what I mean. Internet communities do need some sort of policing, as does a DZ. I have already suggested this to you before - and I still think it is a good idea: To help prevent someone coming back and reposting a deleted thread or posting "Why Was I Deleted," a PM or email stating the rule violation and a warning not to do it again will help this subside. I'm pretty certain you could automate this during the deletion process. QuoteQuoteI've been on this board since the older style forums I've been on here longer. Showoff! QuoteLet's take him out back and beat the shit out of him! If you insist! QuoteQuote....then they venture into the skydiving forums and start giving out advice. That's a different problem that I'd love to hear suggestions about. There's a whole conversation in the Suggestions and Feedback forum dealing with the challenge of establishing credibility online. I've been reading that thread, and most of my ideas and issues have been brought up so far. I don't have a solid answer on how to fix this problem and I don't know if there even is a fix. When I think I can be of benefit to that discussion, I will jump in._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malfunction 0 #121 April 1, 2004 QuoteThing is American politics is proberbly interesting if you are an American, but for the rest of the world, real, who cares? Maybe a solution could be a seperate forum for American Politics then? Make the conversations a "closed door" so to speak... and only people that want to participate or read along will go in there... hence it would not bog down talk back, not all talk back mods would have to moderate it, and the rest of the world can just ignore it. I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,120 #122 April 1, 2004 I like the "rubber room" idea myself. With the caveat that any moderator can move a thread to the rubber room (with its regular purging, and maybe even a limit on posts per day either per thread or per person) any time they darn well want to. Of course, "it's a simple matter of programming" is one of those things that maintainers hate to hear, because it never is Me, I'll probably get a lot more work done without talkback! Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slappie 9 #123 April 1, 2004 QuoteI like the "rubber room" idea myself. With the caveat that any moderator can move a thread to the rubber room (with its regular purging, and maybe even a limit on posts per day either per thread or per person) any time they darn well want to. Of course, "it's a simple matter of programming" is one of those things that maintainers hate to hear, because it never is Me, I'll probably get a lot more work done without talkback! Wendy W. I brought this idea up along time ago.. Have a forum set aside for "flame wars" so people can just vent and get it out. But it was nixxxed pretty fast.. "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bertusgeert 1 #124 April 1, 2004 WHat a good idea indeed. But... If there are no moderators, that means whatever people want to say can be said. With that comes personal attacks, and with that comes agrtivation and even hatred towards specific others. Sometimes this situation occurs in the real world as well, yes, but far less than it will here, as someone posted an article about internet rage in talkback a while ago. My point being, agrivation and seperation in our community will occur in the rubber, unregulated, closed door room. It will then spread out over to the other forums, where people will be pissed at each other. Just a potential problem, but it might cause some grief for moderators in the rest of the forums, as well as creating big seperation in our community. (But in the end I think thats unavoidable with the amount of people on here!) --------------------------------------------- As jy dom is moet jy bloei! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malfunction 0 #125 April 1, 2004 QuoteBut... If there are no moderators I am not saying have no moderators, I am saying that this type of specialized forum would not require all the Talk Back moderators to be watchdogs... one or two moderators can handle this forum.... I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
