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Passenger harness fit vs passenger throwing up.

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One of my pet peeves is watching TIs heaving down on the MLW of the passenger harness just prior to exit - I feel that if you fit it properly on the ground there is no need for major adjustment in the aircraft.
From my observations one of the downsides for those that do this practice seems to be an increased likelyhood of having your passenger thow up on you under canopy. My stats at the moment are 4 chuckers in 5000 plus tandems.
I have 2 questions -

Do you agressively tighten the MLW before you jump?
What is your jump / chuck ratio?

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Good question, I'm wondering what the answers will be. At our small DZ the TI's fit the harness themselves. My practice is to tighten the MLW until it is difficult for the student to stand straight. Then I slack off on the rear adjustment by 2 inches for comfort. In the 182 after they are seated I retighten them to where they were. I always ensure that I don't loosen them so much that it would not be safe, just in case I forget. My belief is that it would be pretty hard to tighten the MLW so much that there would not be space between the shoulder and the attachment when under canopy. What brand of harness are you using? We are using Sigmas.

Only one chucker, but I only have about 300 tandems.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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If you are jumping igmas you might review the studentharness docs.. if a student can't stand straight they can't arch either. That is COUNTER productive. JUST because you feel better about it doesn't make it right..

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

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3 or 4 chuckers in 10k tandems. 1st was after 4000. ALL were on strong harnesses. ... Sigma harness adjusted properly help get student in a seated position and takes most pressure off femulal arteries. .

Some people are going to get sick. JUST no way around it...

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

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douwanto

If you are jumping igmas you might review the studentharness docs.. if a student can't stand straight they can't arch either. That is COUNTER productive. JUST because you feel better about it doesn't make it right..




I'm here to learn.....
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I wonder whether the passenger harness loosens off slightly over time, as harnesses tend to do (depending on the webbing and buckles and tension involved), when the student moves around on the ground. I've never really tested it with the student harnesses. Has someone?

I use the Sigma system and admit to snugging the harness up a little on the plane, not aggressively though, even though the student is in a seated position (Caravan with benches) which "takes up" less length of the harness than when standing or arched.

Less so for the thin and light; more so for the bigger people where it can be harder to get the leg straps really tight or they are going to sink more into the harness. In those cases I'm less concerned with a bit of an arch problem than the whole sinking into the harness issue on opening.

So yeah I sometimes wonder if I'm slightly improving the situation or making it slightly worse.

(Maybe 3 chuckers/heavers in 1000 or so tandems.)

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It depends on the students body. Bigger folks (fat) and anyone who might not get their legs up for landing do better in a more seated position that the overly tight MLW causes.

Personally I set the shoulder connectors in different places for different body types, and for anyone with big thighs I have them sit down when I tighten the leg straps (gets them much tighter so their bodies will sink down less in the harness when the thigh fat squishes - also prevents the leg straps traveling so far and so fast that it strips the fat in their bodies, a cautionary tale/horror story discussef in my TI training).

0 pukers in 300 tandems (just finished my first season). 1 person was SURE he was going to puke, told me when we met on the ground, and a couple others felt pukish under canopy. Talk to them and be receptive and see what they need before you entertain yourself with big spins. Also letting them fly the canopy helps - show them how to turn and let them control how much they turn. I spend a lot of time turning in 1/2 brakes telling them "we're going sooo fast," it keeps them happy, me puke free, and my arms can make it through 15 in a day.

PS. Drogue Fall is a great time to stretch your hips, one at a time and you give them some nice turns and give them their "ride".

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I fit a harness on a student completely, and then loosen the MLW a couple inches for standing and walking comfort on the way to the A/C. My (highly experienced) peers where I worked most recently instead leave their students leg straps (and their own) full loose for the walk to the plane, and then make those and other final adjustments just prior to boarding the plane. Personally, I prefer my student and I arriving at the airplane ready to board. To each his own.

I therefor am one of the folks who re-tightens the main lift web a bit after hooking up the uppers. I think the slight bit of extra slack IS more comfortable for the student during the ride up, and it certainly makes it easier connecting the uppers (perhaps my height is an issue). Also suspect the post hook-up snug down is reassuring to the student, but that's clearly not universal.

I prefer a slightly shorter main lift web because I like the student higher on me than perhaps your average TI. I like keeping their asses as far away from the ground as possible; makes keeping them on my lap for butt-slide landings easier, and gives us more use of our shock-absorbing legs should the landing be more vertical without risking injury to their tailbones.

With proper adjustment of the Sigma harness my students almost always naturally achieve a sitting position under canopy without need of intervention on my part (other than informing them in advance that is the goal). Not hanging them on their femoral arteries is probably the 2nd most important thing you can do to keep a student from getting nauseous...

...The first is not spiraling the hell out of people who get airsick (or carsick). Let your student fly the canopy, and make sure their hands are in the toggles when you do big turns. Have them look at the leading edge of the canopy on the side you are turning toward as you perform the spiral with them, to give them something fixed in their field of view. A crazily spinning world that doesn't match up with the sloshing fluid in their ears; with them having no control or anticipation of what's happening or about to happen — that's an express ticket to vomit city.

I've only had one student get sick on me in the air; but the harness had nothing to do with it. Just before exit, he decided it was time to tell me, "oh by the way, I had like twenty beers last night".

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I like to tighten mine to where it needs to be and don't mess with it much on the plane. If I feel that something looks abnormally loose on the ride up, I will tighten it. I usually don't have to adjust anything in the plane.

I like to tighten the harness to the point that it is snug but not uncomfortably tight, and I will usually ask the passenger when I'm done.

I have had 3 maybe 4 in about 2700 tandems

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If you aren't getting into the plane in a jump ready configuration, you are doing it wrong. If you feel you need to tighten the mlw before jumping you need to review the harness fitting directions/procedures before jumping again. If an emergency happens and we have to get out low and you start to tighten the mlw instead of getting out of the plane, I will kick you out of the way and climb over you to insure the safety of me and my student. There is absolutely no reason to ever board a jump plane not ready to get out.

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In my experience, it's common to tighten the MLW and the diagonal back straps 1-2" in the plane. Leaving them loose on the ground (sometimes students are geared up for 20+ minutes before we board due to staffing) and tightening them that extra 2" is for passenger comfort. If it is a small adjustment like that, it doesn't affect safety, it is a customer service gesture. In a normal climb, we have time to again ensure comfort, restate the jump procedures, etc. In any type of emergency, comfort is off the table until safety is handled.

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I personally agree with dokeman. The harness should be jump ready when boarding the plane.

If you are gearing up 2 or 3 passengers out, I understand leaving them a little loose while they are waiting, but i like to see them adjusted properly before boarding.

Most of the TI where i usually work leave them loose until the ride up, and it annoys me. The local IE is one of them, so not much a can do about it

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What about aircraft where you hook up on the way to altitude? With bench seats we usually had our students seated next to us and then hooked up around 8K. When I did tandems I usually left the harness a little loose for their comfort and at hookup tightened the MLW about an inch or two, then tightened the back diagonals till their hip rings were even with my hips. Kept them even with me torso-wise and there was less tension in the side-straps. But that was just me. I've seen any variety of harness adjustment styles over the years...

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Most schools - that I worked at - insist that harnesses be snug before students leave the hangar.
Then you do a quick harness check before boarding the airplane.
Harness adjustment is difficult in large airplaness and doubly difficult in cramped airplanes.
Any inflight adjustments are psychological/reassuring the student because MLW go slack when sitting, but tighten up when they arch.

In conclusion, a slack harness - during boarding - killed one tandem student. We learned our lesson and there is no excuse for repeating that miserable lesson.

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Slack harness: oh the horror, oh the humanity!

Nobody here is talking about having a dangerously slack harness. Nor even loose leg straps in the plane -- nor loose butt strap nor Y mod for that matter.

Just the difference on the MLW & back diagonals, between comfortable to arch in, slightly snugger, and really snug hindering an arch. Which will translate into slightly looser conditions when seated under canopy. Their tightness also affects comfort for the student standing on the ground (affecting how tightly the leg strap dig into the crotch). We're discussing the minor tradeoffs here.

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Some are here to learn and rigger robs comments are definitely appropriate to the conversation. IF you are walking to the plane and then tightening legs traps as one gentleman suggested his coworkers are doing that is,a problem.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

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1 in 3000 tandems

Harness snug on the ground, leg straps TIGHT.

Adjustments in the plane depend on the student body type.

Small thin people, back laterals tightened slightly. Fronts not touched.

Huge and fat people back laterals tightened and fronts a couple inches depneding on the person and how I feel about them.

It's something I've developed over 3000 tandems.

Crank down on a small slim person and that person will be riding so high you can't see over them, don't crank down on a huge person and they will be riding at your feet.

I also believe in the theory that if they can't stand on the ground, they can't arch in the air.

I worked for a cessna operation with the same two TI's for a couple years. They CRANK their harnesses in the plane, like to the point that when they are hook the students are basically hunched over in a seated position while they are standing. Their students almost always knee flew them, no wonder huh.

I also swear I've had like 2 students in 3000 that I've had to lift their feet for landing. Pretty much everyone that I tell them to lift their knees immediately get put into a seated position in the harness once under canopy.

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I haven't read the whole thread but my observations are that the issue comes from incorrectly placed hip junctions. On 90% of passengers if they are in the correct place the belly band does not need adjusting after gearing up to jump.

I have seen people that placed them in the wrong place or loosened the belly band before tightening up lower connectors have countless people spew each week, but once they changed this part they haven had one since (hundreds and thousands since). If the hip junctions move during this phase it allows the legstraps to change position and cut flow through the femoral artery causing dizziness and nausea.

The hip junctions should be on the front of the hip bones more often than not with a tight belly band so when you tighten the lowers the belly band keeps these in place and the tension comes from the hip junctions on the hip bones allowing the rest of your harnessing job to stay as it was when you put it on.

2000 tandems, 0 people sick.

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I don't know how much the tightness of the harness has to do with the student getting nauseous or not. I do know that I like to have them take the toggles and steer with me down to about 1000'. Since they are doing the steering, I think they feel more in control and less sick.

I also ask, from time to time, how they are feeling, etc. If they say "not so good" I take it slow and easy. Even below 1000', I'll tell them before each turn so I don't surprise them. One puker out of ~1700 tandems.

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JohnMitchell

I don't know how much the tightness of the harness has to do with the student getting nauseous or not. I do know that I like to have them take the toggles and steer with me down to about 1000'. Since they are doing the steering, I think they feel more in control and less sick.

I also ask, from time to time, how they are feeling, etc. If they say "not so good" I take it slow and easy. Even below 1000', I'll tell them before each turn so I don't surprise them. One puker out of ~1700 tandems.



This too! It's like how the driver of a car never gets car sick...

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mx19

This too! It's like how the driver of a car never gets car sick...

That was exactly my line of thinking when I started doing this.

BTW, I fight the urge to overtighten the harness. It's too EZ to really crank it down too tightly when they're sitting in the plane. I remind myself how slack my own harness is when I'm sitting. :D

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