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dzswoop717

private tandem rating

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dzswoop717

I've been around the sport for 50 years, started jumpimg at age 16 in 1978. I'm a troll ?



Pretty sure you are not. But it's pretty easy to see why the original post could be mistaken for a troll. Especially in light of the recent double fatality. Bottom line is there is no such thing as a private tandem rating. Either get a rating or quietly do illegal tandems. Even though you have been around a long time and have lots of experience and assets, you are not special and all the same rules apply to you as to anyone else.

I'm amazed that you would even ask the question here. You should know better. You have three options. Do it right, do it wrong, or don't do it. Choice is yours.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I asked because I wanted to do it right, I have just learned, as so many others have, that you must have a USPA rating. I was hoping that if i was doing it privately there might be an exemption, sort of like having a private pilots license versus having a commercial license. I can take any body I want for a ride in my airplanes as a private as long as I'm not charging them. I thought there might be a similar situation for tandems. That is why I asked asshole.

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I asked because I wanted to do it right, I have just learned, as so many others have, that you must have a USPA rating.



USPA members must have a TI rating to keep their membership.
Otherwise, you can create a private rating if you so desire.

I might just create a rating for this just to for people to have another avenue.

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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I get that the OP here didn't know that USPA ratings were required (by the manufacturers), since he's been out of the commercial end of the sport for a while. Did other people not know that? The FARs, USPA BSRs, and Tandem Manufacturer requirements are all easy to find online if people are curious. Don't just take the forum postings for truth, if it affects your livelihood, look it up and learn it do you don't get bitten in the but.

To the OP: a private, unpaid tandem doesent negate the opportunity to sue the TI, equipment owner, manufacturer, (probably all the way up to the FAA) etc... hence the regulations for who can own a tandem system, who can jump one, maintenance, and waivers required (by the manufacturer to protect the manufacturer, is part of the contract required to own tandem equipment - new or used).

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I don't understand your remark. I was on a dz from the age of 4 when my father and 4 friends went in together to buy a new 1966 cessna 185 to fly skydivers. While other kids were at ball games, sleep overs, and other normal kid stuff on weekends, I was chasing wind drift indicators, building toy parachutes, and learning everything there was to know about the sport. I watched the sport grow and the technoligy advance, I built exact scale models of the Paracomander at age 11 and a Strato Star at age 13. My entire life from age four was focussed on becoming a skydiver and getting in the business. When I retired from the skydiving business in 2002, I completely turned off the business side of my brain and became a fun jumper. I pretty much don't know anything about rule changes or training procedures for any training method since 2002. For the last 2 years I have only been to a dz 2 times to jump, I jump at my place from my plane, with my friends and have no exposure to student operations at all .

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OP -> I don't see anything here that speaks of Troll... your statements have been consistent to a careful reader. Unfortunately many who post here (including some who's opinions I usually respect and value) are sometimes quicker to fire than to aim...

I am in a similar situation (almost 50, stopped tandems in early 2000's and wanting to do _some_ again). So your posting reads completely straights to me.

Bottom line answers as I've gotten them...
- If you are in USA and USPA ( to meet the 'D'/Master FAR requirement) than you must meet the USPA and Mfg licensing and currency requirements. For us, due to the long lay-off, that means retaking a complete recert course for the dual rating. Talk to a TI/E about your background, experience and expectations.
- To take the class, you'll have to show sport currency (100 jumps in the last 12 mo for UPT).
- The class 3 medical is not an FAA requirement, but part of the USPA/Mfg requirements (which we have to follow). There is discussion of lifting it, but I don't see that anytime soon.
- Jumping at your own place does not change the USPA requirements unless you drop your USPA membership as the BSR's apply regardless of where you (we) jump. You'll also need to brush up on the airspace notifications/authorizations required to jump there (always a concern to me being close to DC ;-)
- Part of the recert will be your phase 2 (experienced passenger) jumps which would either need to be at your place or with the cooperation of a DZO.
- Liability (as others have mentioned) is a major concern, not only for you but also for the mfg/pilot/plane owner... hence the reasons for the emphasis on certifications and currency.

Unlike pilots, we are either fully qualified or not... the FAA views us as commercial level operators whether or not we are in the business as such. They don't make allowances for TI's in the same way as a private pilot.

I haven't pulled the trigger on my recert (nor thrown in the towel), partially because I know what it takes and that once I'm in, I've got to be all-in, even if not planning a full-time/staff level of operation.

Good luck with your choices... whatever you decide, be safe.

JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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Federal Requirements:

1) Make sure you have a master license, assuming you're based permanently in the U.S. this means a D License from USPA.

2) Pass a current FAA Class III physical.

3) You will need to take a full tandem course to get your rating going again.



1. The USPA does not issue "Master" licenses. They have not in 10+ years. They have a "D", but no where in the USPA SIM does that equal a "Master" license.

2. Medicals are not required by the FAA and have not been required since the Tandem experimental program has ended.

3. The FAA has no currency requirements.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Hey man to summarize what's being said to you and why you're hearing a lot of noise in this thread, there was very recently a tandem fatality after which it was revealed that an examiner with a suspended rating was either forging or having ratings rubberstamped by someone else. Many issues surrounding this fatality have to do with whether and how much oversight USPA has in the tandem profession.

In this climate your best results will be to find a Tandem Instructor Examiner and work through what is needed for you to regain and maintain a TI certification.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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Faa says must meet manufactures requirements and manufacturers say Faa medical so by virtue of manufacture requirement Faa requires an FAA medical for tandems in the US. And FAA requires by virtue of manufactures requirement one must have attained a uspa D license ..

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

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douwanto

Faa says must meet manufactures requirements and manufacturers say Faa medical so by virtue of manufacture requirement Faa requires an FAA medical for tandems in the US. And FAA requires by virtue of manufactures requirement one must have attained a uspa D license ..



FAA says "master license". USPA does not have a master license.

The FAA does not require a medical. The manufacturer requires it. You can claim that makes the FAA require it, but that is not true. The FAA does not care about a medical. This is something the manufactures have shoved down the USPA's throat, and the USPA happily swallowed.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Ron

***Faa says must meet manufactures requirements and manufacturers say Faa medical so by virtue of manufacture requirement Faa requires an FAA medical for tandems in the US. And FAA requires by virtue of manufactures requirement one must have attained a uspa D license ..



FAA says "master license". USPA does not have a master license.

The FAA does not require a medical. The manufacturer requires it. You can claim that makes the FAA require it, but that is not true. The FAA does not care about a medical. This is something the manufactures have shoved down the USPA's throat, and the USPA happily swallowed.

You're taking paying customers on a charter, what's wrong with requiring the Class-3 medical? I'm sure you've seen some of the cigarette smoking half blind usually drunk gas bags that have no problem passing it.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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DJL

******Faa says must meet manufactures requirements and manufacturers say Faa medical so by virtue of manufacture requirement Faa requires an FAA medical for tandems in the US. And FAA requires by virtue of manufactures requirement one must have attained a uspa D license ..



FAA says "master license". USPA does not have a master license.

The FAA does not require a medical. The manufacturer requires it. You can claim that makes the FAA require it, but that is not true. The FAA does not care about a medical. This is something the manufactures have shoved down the USPA's throat, and the USPA happily swallowed.

You're taking paying customers on a charter, what's wrong with requiring the Class-3 medical? I'm sure you've seen some of the cigarette smoking half blind usually drunk gas bags that have no problem passing it.

The FAA does not require medicals for:
Glider instructors
Balloon instructors
Light Sport aircraft instructors

I have seen some drug addict, alcoholic, people pass it.... I have also seen guys that don't drink, don't smoke, and don't do drugs have to sumbmit to expensive testing to get a medical.

For example.... I had a kidney stone once. The FAA decided I needed a cystoscopy. So I had to go pay for this additional test, that was not covered by my insurance. The AME, urologist, my PCP, and a buddy that is a doctor ALL told me that the test would show nothing... And that it was a waste. After the test, it hurt to pee for two days.

So I paid 200-300 dollars for a test that everyone knew would show nothing and did show nothing and it was literally a pain in my dick.

I have a buddy that had a stint 15 years ago... He could not pass a medical since Oak City required him to submit the serial number and doctors drawings of the stint... This was 15 years ago and the guy has made 3k jumps since then and builds barns.

So if the alcoholic drug addicts can pass it... What good is it? If it makes people go through expensive testing for no reason (seriously, you think I would be skydiving if I had a kidney stone going?).

Frankly, since light sport aircraft have been allowed, there has not been a single medical issue caused crash.

It is a waste of time and money that accomplishes nothing but catering to the manufacturer and it is NOT required by the FAA.

It is time the USPA supports the members and not UPT.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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^^ Oh come on. The manufacturers are protecting themselves against litigation. It's hard to sue someone who died on a jump, the manufacturer "responsible" for letting that person have the gear has much deeper financial pockets for lawyers. Based on dollars, we're lucky they still want to sell skydiving gear to non-military customers at all (plus we all want custom sized and colored everything and ASAP).

Yes there are hoops to jump through; so jump through them, don't jump through them, or work to change them. IMO we're lucky it's even legal to do something so incrediby fun, add tandems to the mix and we can share our joy PLUS it can be a well paying full time job... I will jump through all the hoops, just let me keep jumping from planes.

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The FAA does not require medicals for:
Glider instructors
Balloon instructors
Light Sport aircraft instructors



How about for people taking customers on rides, or is that what you meant? Anyway, interesting. I wonder what the root of the issue was for manufacturer's to require it.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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^^ Oh come on. The manufacturers are protecting themselves against litigation



That does not excuse why the USPA who is supposed to represent JUMPERS is caving to the manufacturers.

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Yes there are hoops to jump through; so jump through them, don't jump through them, or work to change them.



I am working to change them. A majority of people don't realize that it is the USPA that requires a medical, when the FAA does not care.

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IMO we're lucky it's even legal to do something so incrediby fun, add tandems to the mix and we can share our joy PLUS it can be a well paying full time job... I will jump through all the hoops, just let me keep jumping from planes.



I hope you still have this lackadaisical attitude after you have to jump through some hoops to get a medical.... Let us know when they shove a camera up your dick for no reason.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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DJL

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The FAA does not require medicals for:
Glider instructors
Balloon instructors
Light Sport aircraft instructors



How about for people taking customers on rides, or is that what you meant? Anyway, interesting. I wonder what the root of the issue was for manufacturer's to require it.



You are not required to have a medical to be a:
Balloon Pilot
Glider Pilot
Light Sport Pilot

You may take passengers (Light sport is limited to one passenger).

You may also be an instructor for balloons, gliders, and LSA without a medical. So basically the same thing as a TI.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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DJL

A to finish the clarification, paying passengers?



Yes, you may fly:
A Balloon
A Glider
An LSA aircraft

With a paying student without a medical.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.23
(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a medical certificate -

(1) When exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking -

(i) A sport pilot certificate with glider or balloon privileges; or

(ii) A pilot certificate with a glider category rating or balloon class rating;

(2) When exercising the privileges of a sport pilot certificate with privileges in a glider or balloon;

(3) When exercising the privileges of a pilot certificate with a glider category rating or balloon class rating in a glider or a balloon, as appropriate;

(4) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate with -

(i) A sport pilot rating in a glider or balloon; or

(ii) A glider category rating;


https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/sport_pilot/media/LSPBrochure.pdf

http://www.pilotfriend.com/training/flight_training/faa_bal.htm

"No medical certificate is required, but the applicant must certify that he has no known medical defect that makes him unable to pilot a free balloon."
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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The whole debate about Class 3 Medicare for TIs started back in 1983 when Strong and RWS (predecessor to UPT) first applied for a waiver (to FARs) to allow tandems.
Tandem manufacturers set such high standards for TIs that it was impossible for the FAA to refuse their application. After 25 years of jumping with a waiver, the FAA finally rewrote rules to make tandem jumping legal. Since the old standards kept the fatality rate tiny, the FAA, manufacturers, USPA, etc. saw no reason to change standards.

If it ain't broke, don't fit it.

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riggerrob

The whole debate about Class 3 Medicare for TIs started back in 1983 when Strong and RWS (predecessor to UPT) first applied for a waiver (to FARs) to allow tandems.
Tandem manufacturers set such high standards for TIs that it was impossible for the FAA to refuse their application. After 25 years of jumping with a waiver, the FAA finally rewrote rules to make tandem jumping legal. Since the old standards kept the fatality rate tiny, the FAA, manufacturers, USPA, etc. saw no reason to change standards.

If it ain't broke, don't fit it.



The class three medical does not protect people. LSA aircraft have been flying without a medical for 10 years now without a single accident due to a medical condition.

The USPA kept the medical because UPT demands they do it. The USPA caved and supported UPT over the individual members.

The fact that the EAA, AOPA have fought to get rid of the third class medical for ALL pilots is proof the third class medical is worthless.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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The fact that the EAA, AOPA have fought to get rid of the third class medical for ALL pilots is proof the third class medical is worthless.




No it isn't. It's merely proof that those are organizations advocating for their members. Unlike USPA, which advocates more for it's industry. If you don't like that, it does have an elected BoD you know.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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