USPA Acts to Ensure Proper TI Qualifications

[fencebuster 7]

As a result of the tandem dual fatality at Lodi, USPA has suspended Bill Dause's ratings and membership pending investigation. All TIs who received their ratings from two named individuals must stop doing tandem skydives and complete refresher training and in some cases, complete the entire Tandem Rating Course again.

So much for USPA not doing anything.

http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/files/misc_USPATandemAnnouncement.pdf

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[Hooknswoop 19]

Why must they stop doing tandems if they don't have UPT AND USPA tandem ratings?

Why did they revoke USPA memberships before the investigation was complete?

I am impressed that USPA is taking action.

Derek V

[Rover 11]

http://www.uspa.org/Portals/0/files/misc_USPATandemAnnouncement.pdf

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[irishrigger 32]

it seems that about 140 USPA Tandem Masters have been affected by this. from what i read and understand these ratings were issued by USPA, otherwise USPA would not get these people to re-certified!

a big question is how these rating were issued in the first place when the named person had there rating already suspended?

this is going to be one hell of a mess to clear up!

[baronn 111]

Gee. just like the FAA yanking a pilot's ticket if someone jumps an out of date rig from the plane they're flying, the USPA has decide to yank Bill's membership. Did he conduct this course? Don't get me wrong, this was tragic but, what if a PROPERLY trained instructor would (could) have made the same mistake? The USPA is gonna start going after anybody and everybody associated with that? It's happened in the past and I don't remember this occurring. Smells revengeyish to me.....

[diablopilot 2]

Hooknswoop

Why must they stop doing tandems if they don't have UPT AND USPA tandem ratings?

Because they have USPA memberships.

Quote

Why did they revoke USPA memberships before the investigation was complete?

Because that is the specified course of action as spelled out in the S&TA and Governance Manuals

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[kallend 1,936]

baronn

Gee. just like the FAA yanking a pilot's ticket if someone jumps an out of date rig from the plane they're flying, the USPA has decide to yank Bill's membership. Did he conduct this course? Don't get me wrong, this was tragic but, what if a PROPERLY trained instructor would (could) have made the same mistake? The USPA is gonna start going after anybody and everybody associated with that? It's happened in the past and I don't remember this occurring. Smells revengeyish to me.....

Your comment smells excuseyish to me.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tkhayes 329]

you go right ahead and defend your position in court. let us know how that works out.

[JohnMitchell 16]

Hooknswoop

Why must they stop doing tandems if they don't have UPT AND USPA tandem ratings?

FAA Part 105.45 is pretty specific that you have to have a "master's parachute license" and have been "certified by the manufacturer or tandem course provider", etc.

Without your license and certification, you're violating federal law, not just some USPA rules. The FAA can take you to court and fine the heck out of you.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

FAA Part 105.45 is pretty specific that you have to have a "master's parachute license" and have been "certified by the manufacturer or tandem course provider", etc.

Right so you can have a D license, USPA membership, and a UPT tandem rating and be legal, yes?

Derek V

[sammielu 3]

From the USPA pdf: USPA’s Basic Safety Requirements (2-1.F.4.c.1)state that any USPA member who conducts tandem jumps must have been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used, and hold a current USPA Tandem Instructor rating.

FAA requires the USPA D license, USPA requires the tandem instructor rating, both require the equipment manufacturer rating to conduct tandem jumps.

[Hooknswoop 19]

So a tandem instructor could have a D license, a manufacture's rating and be FAA legal?

The FAA doesn't recognize FAI licenses?

Derek V

[baronn 111]

Which part of (excuseyish) are smelling? The USPA did this once before. Against the owners of what was then Skyride. They have plenty of dough so they dragged them to court to get their membership back. Case was heard in front of a Federal judge. Took him 22 min to reach a decision in favor of the Plaintiff. USPA agreed to the settlement but only if it remained sealed.
I've never been to Lodi and have never met Bill. Not sure how his place operates. Unless he KNEW these instructors did not have the proper certs or ratings, I don't see why the USPA yanked his personal membership. Seems "Bullyish" to me. Especially after Ed Scott's comments right after this happened

[JohnMitchell 16]

Hooknswoop

Quote

FAA Part 105.45 is pretty specific that you have to have a "master's parachute license" and have been "certified by the manufacturer or tandem course provider", etc.

Right so you can have a D license, USPA membership, and a UPT tandem rating and be legal, yes?

Derek V

I'd say "must have". Or an equivalent license from another country.

[MakeItHappen 15]

baronn

snipped stuff about SR that you don't have a clue about

Unless he KNEW these instructors did not have the proper certs or ratings, I don't see why the USPA yanked his personal membership. Seems "Bullyish" to me.

You ought to go read this
http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Tandem%20Information/05501(End_User_Agreement).pdf

From that pdf:
"Buyer agrees that it shall not use the Tandem Parachute System in violation of any FARs,
or other federal, state, municipal, or other governmental regulations, or any United States
Parachute Association Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs). "

What this means is that the tandem rig OWNER needs to ensure that the TI is properly rated.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[jclalor 12]

MakeItHappen

***snipped stuff about SR that you don't have a clue about

Unless he KNEW these instructors did not have the proper certs or ratings, I don't see why the USPA yanked his personal membership. Seems "Bullyish" to me.

You ought to go read this
http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Tandem%20Information/05501(End_User_Agreement).pdf

From that pdf:
"Buyer agrees that it shall not use the Tandem Parachute System in violation of any FARs,
or other federal, state, municipal, or other governmental regulations, or any United States
Parachute Association Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs). "

What this means is that the tandem rig OWNER needs to ensure that the TI is properly rated.

. This never mattered:


11. Buyer agrees not to permit anyone under the age of majority for entering into contractual relationships, both in the state in which the Waiver is signed and also in the state in which the jump is to be made, to utilize the Tandem Parachute System for a parachute jump and/or a tandem parachute jump.

[baronn 111]

This is getting into a grey area. A DZO needs TI's. they run an ad for help. Get responses, they show, present the proper ratings, medicals and USPA ratings. Starts throwing drogues without any fanfare and life is good. A TI is faced with a situation like this, reacts as this person did and gets unlucky in the outcome, (let's not get into a discussion on how it was a mistake. We/he knows that) and now the DZO in THIS situation has his personal membership yanked, an investigation is started into the examiners credentials and any other TI's that were trained by these guys now have to be retrained. Other tandem fatalities have occurred in the past and I don't recall these type of actions being implemented. Let's not get into whether it is right or wrong at this time. Everyone agrees we need proper training and ratings. My point is would this have happened to any other USPA group member DZ or is this action unique to Lodi or any other non-group members?

[MakeItHappen 15]

baronn

This is getting into a grey area. A DZO needs TI's. they run an ad for help. Get responses, they show, present the proper ratings, medicals and USPA ratings. Starts throwing drogues without any fanfare and life is good. A TI is faced with a situation like this, reacts as this person did and gets unlucky in the outcome, (let's not get into a discussion on how it was a mistake. We/he knows that) and now the DZO in THIS situation has his personal membership yanked, an investigation is started into the examiners credentials and any other TI's that were trained by these guys now have to be retrained. Other tandem fatalities have occurred in the past and I don't recall these type of actions being implemented. Let's not get into whether it is right or wrong at this time. Everyone agrees we need proper training and ratings. My point is would this have happened to any other USPA group member DZ or is this action unique to Lodi or any other non-group members?

This has nothing to do with whether the DZ is a GM or not.

This is about a TIE who had his examiner rating suspended a year ago that continued to hold courses and did not train his candidates properly.

The closest previous incident that is somewhat similar to this case is from the early 90s.
A Vector rated TI used a Strong rig. The rig was owned by someone else. The jump was done in central CA, but not a regular DZ. (IIRC it was Arvin.)
The landing was bad, killed the student, TI lived.
IIRC, the rig owner, as well as the TI, had his rating suspended.
Back then tandems were operating under the FAA waiver - slightly different than the rules today.
The similar rule is/was that the tandem rig OWNER is responsible for ensuring that the TI making the jump has the proper ratings.

Other than that incident, I cannot recall any other case when a suspended examiner continued to conduct courses and somehow convinced the candidates that everything was fine, even when the paperwork never came.
If you go through a rating course and don't get your credentials within a couple of weeks, you should say something or realize that you've been duped or maybe you are complicit in the bogus rating.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[dninness 4]

surely, other tandem fatalities have occurred, yes. But I suspect that the subsequent investigations didn't turn up irregularities in certifications and qualifications.

I've never seen a USPA action like this that came right out and named names. (there have been suspensions and such where there were names in the minutes of the USPA meeting) That kind of surprised me.

From what I read, I suspect there are a couple parallel tracks to the situation:

- A tandem examiner had his examiner privileges suspended but kept right on conducting rating training.
-- It looks like anything after July of last year was in the definite "He didn't have examiner privileges, so if you got a rating from him, its bogus" and anything between Feb 2011 and the rating suspension was "suspect" likely, it seems, due to potential documentation issues.
-- Someplace (here?) I saw that there was a concern for "forged" documentation. Someone was signing someone else's name, or conducting a rating course and having someone else pencil whip the documentation to get it past USPA?

- The DZ where the these potentially bogus tandem rating courses were held probably knew that they were bogus, or should have known they were bogus.

- Additional looks into the qualification of any of the TMs at the affected operation uncovered discrepancies and serious FAR/BSR/Manufacturer-related violations.

Even though Lodi isn't a USPA Group Member DZ, the DZO and TMs are individual USPA members. Just because the DZ isn't a GM DZ doesn't mean you as an individual member can get away with ignoring or skirting around the BSRs, the license rating process, the FARs and the manufacturer's requirements at a whim without risk to your personal membership (and probably serious legal action, too).

This is kind of my two cents, to be sure. I'm not an examiner or in the USPA hierarchy apart from being an instructor at a GM DZ. But I've seen things like this in other organizations I've been a part of: something happens, minor or otherwise, and that incident or infraction opens to the door to a "more than cursory look" at the local operation from the regional or national governing body. Suddenly, its not just Minor Infraction A or Accident B that is at question, that "closer look" reveals other things: ignored regulations, incomplete documentation, outright malfeasance, etc. Now everybody's tits are in the ringer, so to speak.

NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

[obelixtim 150]

Do we know why these two individuals had their ratings suspended in the first place?

If they were legal and legit in the first place, what happened to change that status?

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

I cannot recall any other case when a suspended examiner continued to conduct courses and somehow convinced the candidates that everything was fine, even when the paperwork never came.
If you go through a rating course and don't get your credentials within a couple of weeks, you should say something or realize that you've been duped or maybe you are complicit in the bogus rating.

Seems like a pretty stupid way of doing business indeed. However, if the USPA has been issuing licenses in a 'suspended guy ran the course and non-suspended guy signed the paperwork'-scenario and the paperwork did come "with an official USPA stamp" this can quickly turn into a legal quagmire for the USPA, even if they were duped themselves and did not know anything about what was going on.

Anybody that has any insight about what was really happening there? Correct me if I'm wrong but from here it seems that in order to get your USPA tandem license suspended you need to have one in the first place, but what do I know - I live on another continent and should replace my avatar with a picture of a rocking chair...

http://www.uspa.org/News-Events/News/Article/1864/USPA-Acts-to-Ensure-Proper-Tandem-Instructor-Certification

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[baronn 111]

Of all the places I've worked at (yeah, it's a been a few), I've never had my ratings investigated like this. No doubt, it's complete BS that anyone is trying to pull this shit but, my point is where is the responsibilty of the DZO to do this? A candidate answers an ad for help, presents the ratings, medical and in date membership, USPA confirms its good and that's it. IF Bill knew the TIE's were no good and if the course was done at his place knowing this, that's a different story. Hopefully the facts will present a clear answer. So far, IMO, this looks like a witch hunt on a non member DZO by the USPA

[MakeItHappen 15]

baronn

Of all the places I've worked at (yeah, it's a been a few)....

I really, really feel for your situation of not being able to hold a steady job or contract at a DZ.
Maybe that is related to your attitude???

GFY - good thing that acronym has multiple meanings because the mods might take that as an insult of you and your posts when I *might* actually be complimenting you.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[baronn 111]

I understand that I'm putting my neck in the noose every time I post here but, perhaps we can leave these unnecessary comments out of this discussion. Yer right. Your comment could be taken a few different ways. Instead of picking a single line and making some opaque comment about someone you don't know, why don't you try focusing that energy where the REAL problems are here. Most of what we do in this sport/business I love. This kinda shit, I can easily live without.......l

[gday 0]

obelixtim

Do we know why these two individuals had their ratings suspended in the first place

Anyone know if Robert Allen Pooley is one if the TIE's?

http://www.lodinews.com/crime/arrests/article_e215683a-dce3-11e4-9c11-8b74e066c5f1.html

-mick