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skydived19006

GoPro Model/s for Vid/Still Handcam???

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I'm looking for input on GoPro models for Hand Cam.

What are your thoughts on GoPro models for stills and video? I currently have old stuff, so need to do a ground up upgrade and put together a couple of gloves for a 182 operation.

Here's what a few minutes of me looking at technical specifications tells me:
I can go with the basic Hero ($129) for stills, it'll do 1 second interval and 5 megapixel. I think that I'd go with 5mp regardless the camera just due to the file size of 200 to 300 pictures.

I would be just as well to go with the Hero+ ($199) for handcam video. It'll shoot 1080 or 720p at 30, 50, or 60 fps. The Hero 3 you're basically stuck at 30 fps. I understand frames per second, but don't know how much difference to the eye going from 30 to 50 or 60 fps would matter. Maybe 60 fps would be appropriate considering that we'll run part of the video in slow motion? Anyone have any good reason go go with a more expensive/capable model then the $199 Hero+ for video? I don't really mind throwing a few hundred more dollars at it if there's a clear advantage.

I did a search, and don't really see this discussion. I did a post in the Photography and Video forum, but those guys, I think, don't really have much interest in discussing Handcam.

I think that I'm settled on the Pivot Pad HC Glove. It looks like a pretty darn well designed system.

Martin
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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One option would be going with 2 Gopro sessions.

One thing to keep in mind depending on the conditions meaning high overcast the in plane footage can be a little dark where the Hero 4 has a better low light capability to help with that. I feel that 1080 at 60FPS gives options for decent slow motion and quality, however some editing software struggle with the 60fps setting.
My personal preference is the pivot glove with 2 Hero 4 silvers, 12MP pictures set for 1 per second and 1080 60FPS video. I also think putting the video camera on top as it is set back a little farther and the pictures bottom. In picture mode it takes larger image than video so even set forward a little the pictures are still wider than the video.
One thing to keep in mind if you are switching from Sony camcorder is the Gopro doesn't have any image stabilization and you will see it
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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TheCaptain

One option would be going with 2 Gopro sessions.

One thing to keep in mind depending on the conditions meaning high overcast the in plane footage can be a little dark where the Hero 4 has a better low light capability to help with that. I feel that 1080 at 60FPS gives options for decent slow motion and quality, however some editing software struggle with the 60fps setting.
My personal preference is the pivot glove with 2 Hero 4 silvers, 12MP pictures set for 1 per second and 1080 60FPS video. I also put the video camera on top as it is set back a little farther and the pictures bottom. In picture mode it takes larger image than video so even set forward a little the pictures are still wider than the video.
One thing to keep in mind if you are switching from Sony camcorder is the Gopro doesn't have any image stabilization and you will see it



Is there really a discernible difference in 5mp/8mp/12mp stills?

I realize that we're losing the image stabilization, but don't really see much of an option. I had thought that placing the video on bottom would subject the video to slightly less shake.
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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There is a definite difference between 5MP & 12MP especially if zooming in for cropping.
You are right there really is no way to get around loosing the image stabilization. You are right that the lower placement would show just a little less motion however I feel any extra distance you can get from the student helps make for better video so I feel that is worth the little more movement. I just even noticed that I have to be vigilant even on the ground to keep the camera as still as possible
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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Some info: I have two gopro 3+ black with Pivot Pad glove. I think you definitely want to shoot video in superview (for hero+ this would be 720p and 50fps or 60fps). The slow motion in my opinion is good at 30fps slowing it down to 50% speed. More fps for handcam will just create more media and longer rendering times. This year I was making 720p videos for clients because some of them have slow computers and might complain that full hd is not working for them :) I'll probably change this to full hd this year.
For photos you want the best photos you can get and that would be 12mp (I haven't seen the 5mp photos of hero+ so I might be biased). For 182 I would set it to 0.5 seconds interval because of the freefall time ;) I have it set to 1 second for everything and 0.5 for freefall. The whole photo set of the jump is about 1.2gb for me with 12mp photos and videos are 0.4gb. Some of my friends do a 2 second interval for everything except the freefall where they also do the 0.5 second interval. Less work for deleting unwanted photos :)
A note for the pivot pad glove. My setup is video at the bottom and photo on the top. That is because of the superview. The top camera always records the lens cover from the bottom cam. It's barely noticeable and I think it's better if it's on the photos and not on the video. Here is a sample of the photo:
https://goo.gl/photos/TCejAnxw1yky9hrQ9
Maybe the new models have fixed that. Two years ago I was told the glove was designed for hero 3 without superview. I have used the first generation of the glove and now for 2 seasons the second generation of the glove and I am very happy with it (maybe just buy some extra buttons - I loose about 2 per season).
Hero 4 session looks nice and it would be great but based on reviews it can't compare to the 3+ or 4 quality of footage (don't know how it compares to hero+) so for now I would skip that.
Hope it helps.

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If running super ultra wide I would run the video on the bottom too. The pictures will just get the edge of the lower housing but it is barely noticeable. The super ultra wide looks great in freefall but does get a little fisheyed on the other footage
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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Good info for sure.

The Hero ($129) stills are 5 mp.
The Hero+ ($199) stills are 8mp.

How are you switching from .5 second interval to 2 second interval during the jump? That would require fishing through menus and drilling into sub menus I would think.

How much time does it require to do the full video/stills edit process? I'd like to think that it could be done if 15 minutes.

Does computer processor speed have a large affect on the time required to render, etc?
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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TheCaptain

If running super ultra wide I would run the video on the bottom too. The pictures will just get the edge of the lower housing but it is barely noticeable. The super ultra wide looks great in freefall but does get a little fisheyed on the other footage



I like the option of Superview, but it would be something to play with and decide. Guessing that standard wide may be a better choice.
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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After several years and thousands of jumps with gopro 2s last year I upgraded to 4+blacks and I can tell you the difference in color and The superwide changes the game on handycam. I used Chris warnick s swivel glove and love it.
Evendors at $1000 for the new setup it payed for itself in shot order aND the eND product was well wOrth the expense.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

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Most of the time I put it into the 0.5 mode after the last clip in the airplane after I attach all the hooks. I video the process (I go like all hooks are attached and count and pull on them so that the pax feels it 1,2,3,4, then I do a quick handle check and state on the video that I have checked the parachute and that it looks good, I also state that I feel great and ask the pax how he/she feels, etc.). I have memorized the number of button pushes so that I could almost do it without looking at the screen :) Depends on the pax and circumstences so in about 50% of times I also do after the opening sequence. Saves the space, batteries and time for deleting unwanted photos. But a lot of times I just leave it in the 0.5 second mode.
I think you defintely need to use superview. I also used gopro 2 and then upgraded to 3+ and the difference is huge.
I wouldn't say it takes more then 15 minutes for the whole process (transfering video, editing the video, rendering, deleting bad photos). Rendering time depends on multiple things: software, processor speed, gpu, input media, output media).

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For outside i've always used single pic mode up until gear up, then switch the camera over to .5 timed mode when I don my helmet right before exit. In 182 I typically get about 300-400 pics total on a jump, then delete about 50-100 of "dead time pics" from the time between helmet on and door, my canopy opening and performing quick check before killing cams, etc. I've still got a cx110 for vid still, but have used GP 3+ for awhile for stills and prefer the results over the older gens. However the older gens had larger batteries that seemed to last longer and could be swapped easier. IMO the older gens handled changing light conditions (Dark plane out into bright sunlight) better than the 3+ and 4. The session is a non-starter for me because of no changeable battery. If you use .5 make sure you have really good cards rated at the correct write speed, or the camera will get slowed down and you will not get true .5 second intervals on the newer cams due to the larger file size with higher MP sensors.

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Just started doing handcam about 10 days ago, and business has been pretty slow since I've arrived (I've only done 14 handcam tandems and half a dozen extra jumps with the cams so far); so consider that when reading my comments. I'm still very much figuring this out.

Comments below — on the cameras first; and the mounting options second.

...

My boss, who has lots of handcam experience, shoots with the Chris Warnock Pivot Pad with dual GoPro Hero 3+Blacks and an external microphone for video handtacked to his glove.

Needing to invest in new gear myself, I elected to try the Chris Warnock Pivot Pad for Dual GoPro Hero 4 Sessions. I chose this primarily for two reasons:

(1) Super low profile and snag risk. Being brand-new to Handcam, I wanted to start with as little obstruction as possible.

(2) I believe the introduction of the Session form factor is an indication of the direction GoPro will be taking in the future with new releases. As an action cam company, and the LEADING action cam company, their goal is clearly to get their cameras in as many places as possible. Smaller size is clearly the way to do this. I don't see the form factor of the Hero 3+ or Hero 4+ lasting more than one more generation. I also see the next generation Sessions getting better and better optics (probably they find a way to squeeze the larger-Hero sized sensor in there) and processing power.

I didn't want to invest in a dying format if I could avoid it. The true test, however, would be if the quality was up to snuff. More on this below.

One other things I considered:

(3) The Hero 4 Session was recently reduced in price from $400 (same as the Hero 4 Silver) to just $200.

(4) When I'm done doing handcam, the Sessions could be a lot of fun to play around with on other skydives, using all sorts of unusual mounting locations.

...

On quality:

The video quality on Superview Wide-Angle is perhaps a step below the Hero 3+ Black in poor light (smaller sensor) and clearly is said to be below the apparently refined Hero 4+ Black. But so far, it has proven to be sufficiently "good enough".

Compared to the Hero 3+ Black, it can only shoot 1080P Superview at 48 frames per second instead of 60.

The still quality is also quite acceptable, especially in good light, and with the addition of some easy post in Photoshop (Auto HDR for example) can fix the rest. Still photos are only 8mp as compared to the 12mp of the Hero 3+ Black — but I can't imagine a situation where anyone would ever want to crop a handcam shot, anyway. It can shoot such stills at up to 0.5 second intervals, but due to file size issues and the use of USB 2.0 thumbs for content distribution to students, it is preferred here to shoot at 1 shot every 2 seconds, even during freefall from the dropzone's Cessna.

The internal microphone is a DEFINITE IMPROVEMENT over the Hero 3+ Black. I purchased an external microphone, but have had no reason to use it yet, as the sound quality has been extremely satisfactory in stock condition.

Being unable to adjust menu settings while the cameras are in the housing (the menu button is inaccessible), it isn't very practical to adjust photo interval in-flight; but it's definitely possible if you have the time to pop your Session dedicated to stills out of the housing; or leave wifi on and use the smart remote or cell phone app.

Frustratingly, you can not set the Session to default to still photo mode unless paired with a Smart Remote or App. With Wifi off, the only way to take photos is to hold the camera power button for three consecutive seconds. If you release too soon, you'll be shooting video instead. This really sucks, since it pretty much means you can't avoid taking a lot of crap shots getting in position in the door (if you are second out of a Cessna and jumping in a location where accurate spots are essential) and hopefully can be fixed with a future firmware upgrade.

You also can not delete (format) the card via the device itself — you must use the app. This is annoying if you are in a rush between loads and want to clear the memory before each new customer after dumping the previous job to your laptop.

My workaround only takes a few extra seconds, but I'm told to expect those seconds to count when business picks back up. Anyway, I just copy the contents of the DCIM folder into another folder (previously prepared) on the memory card after first copying it to the computer.

...

On the Pivot Pad for Dual Hero 4 Session:

Something I did not anticipate with the tiny form-factor cameras and low profile, very streamlined and snag resistant mount, is how the camera's location so close to the back of my hand; and their side-by-side arrangement, would change the appearance of my handcam arm in the resulting videos and stills, as compared to taller arrangements of bigger cameras.

Basically, my arm appeared GIGANTIC in the shot compared to that of my boss's; sometimes taking up as much as 1/3 of the screen depending on how well I did positioning the camera relative to the angle of my wrist and elbow. It isn't something he noticed until I mentioned it myself, but it's pretty clear once you see it. At that point, he again strongly urged me to switch setups and convert to dual Hero 3+ Blacks.

Being the kind of guy I am, I figured I might be able to find a solution through mounting the cameras at different angles (the mount pivots for a reason) or learning to fly my arm another way. But it also occurred to me I might be able to engineer a solution. After a trip to home depot and a fortuitous find while browsing for my plan-A mod, I got home and went to work. My result is pictured below; as well as some before and after photos for comparison.

Ironically, my camera assembly is now slightly taller than the one I was first ill at ease to use; but it's still future-proof and (at lease in my opinion) the results have been dramatic.

It also makes the handcam assembly a lot easier to handle for ground and in-airplane shots when NOT wearing the glove, as there is more to hold onto, and your hands are never at risk of block the cams anymore.

I'd certainly appreciate any feedback.

And I'll throw this out there ... if anyone would like to try my modification themselves, I'll be happy to send instructions, or modify any gloves you send me for just a modest fee for the parts and labor. I'll do that, at least, until someone (like perhaps Chris) comes up with a better solution, if they/he feel there might actually be a market for it. I'm guessing it's probably too small for custom engineer product; being it's just applicable to Hero 4 Session Pivot Pad Glove owners with strong cases of OCD. How many of us could there possibly be?

...

Photos:

https://flic.kr/s/aHskq67AtH

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I've looked at the options, and tried to dig my way through all the tech specs. I could just buy four 4 Blacks, but don't really see the need. I don't need the touch screen, and don't need to shoot in 4K, as far as I can tell. Thinking two 4 silvers for video, shooting in 1080P Super Wide, and two Hero+ for stills shooting 8 meg stills. So, $1,200 for the cameras as opposed to $2,000.

Now, I just need to figure out the computer and software to edit that shit!

Martin
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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skydived19006

Good info David, thanks.



No problem.

Added some more photos to the flickr gallery (showing the parts I used to build the extension, and a subsequent modification I made to add a Viso altimeter in the extra space now available under the cameras).

Quote

I used the L&B Back-of-Hand Mount that comes with the Viso, a stitch-picker, scissors, some super-tack and a needle, and about fifteen minutes, and made a nice strap to secure the altimeter to my modified mount (now with a new flat space carved out for my Viso). A little bit of foam around the altimeter and an additional layer of gaffer's tape took care of any added potential snag hazzards.



Still early in my handcam career, but am very much liking the results do date. The higher position of the cameras, plus aiming the cameras further forward (counter-clockwise) and flying with more bend in my elbow, is doing wonders compared to the results of my first few jumps.

https://flic.kr/s/aHskq67AtH

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Brief update:

(Now 149 tandems into brief handcam career. Haven't yet updated any of the sample pictures at the link above, though.)

For all its potential drawbacks, one thing the Hero 4 Session clearly has going for it is amazing battery life relative to the bigger Hero 3+B and 4B. Noticed yesterday after 17 jumps in two days, my Hero 4 set up for stills (~85/jump) still had a nearly full battery charge; and the one used for video just down-ticked to indicating half-full at the end of the 2nd day. Can see no foreseeable case where I can possibly jump enough in a single day to worry about running out of juice. They recharge very quickly, too, using (in my case) USB from a couple 10W Apple iPad charging bricks. Fwiw.

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