DZ handing out ratings based upon false records

[CasGal 0]

I'm sure that this happens in more than one location, but if a person knows that a DZ is training and certifying TIs with 18 months in the sport and 380 jumps, for example, is there any action that can be taken? The attitude of the DZO and guilty parties is, "Let them try and prove it", since they pencil in jump numbers and fake dates for their "first jump"s. I am saddened by the lack of integrity being shown towards the passengers who put their trust in these "professionals", but fear that they may be right and it's a matter that is unsavory, but ultimately without any ability to enforce.

[Deisel 35]

Report it to your regional director, Jim Crouch at USPA, and Tom Noonan at UPT (assuming that they are using Sigmas). They will investigate it.

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[piisfish 135]

are they foolish enough to hire them too ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[DougH 270]

piisfish

are they foolish enough to hire them too ?

Foolish? This is a DZO gold mine, just think about it.

If they can convince a 380 jump wonder that the rules aren't important, they can also convince that same jumper to push sunset, and jump when the winds are shitty. They get to fight off pressure to raise pay too.

On top of that if the DZO is the evaluator then they get free instructor jumps while the guy or gal works off the cost of the "course".

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[CasGal 0]

Quote

Foolish? This is a DZO gold mine, just think about it.

If they can convince a 380 jump wonder that the rules aren't important, they can also convince that same jumper to push sunset, and jump when the winds are shitty. They get to fight off pressure to raise pay too.

On top of that if the DZO is the evaluator then they get free instructor jumps while the guy or gal works off the cost of the "course".

Hit the nail on the head. This DZO is a sly fox. He makes these guys feel like they're somehow special and that they should become a TI well before the regulations would permit, because of course they're far more talented than your average skydiver and such rules should not apply to them. But, the whole purpose is to get a staff of people who are entirely indebted to him. He has these guys jumping passengers in thunderstorms, in wild winds, you name it. And when they DO get the experience necessary to say, "Hey, no way, this isn't safe", he grabs some more 300 jump wonder fun jumpers and starts a new TI course. One weekend and they're off doing meat loads. Like you said, they have to "work off" their course and do all of those free evaluation jumps. After which, he's got a new batch of people who will jump anytime in any weather under any shady conditions whatsoever.

So, yes, the DZO hires these guys. And they work for him for a year or so, then move on to other DZs around the country (and world). By that time, though, at least they've actually met the requirements to be doing the job!

[DSE 3]

Who is training these TI's?

Is there a rated USPA examiner doing the training, or is it a DZO that has a lot of experience in the sport acting as an examiner? Is it a local guy that has a lot of history, maybe a manufacturer employee? Former USPA Examiner?

If what you're saying is accurate, somewhere, somehow someone with a rating would likely be overseeing this process.

[Deisel 35]

Not necessarily. The rig owner can perform most examiner functions. Its a loophole id like to see UPT address but none the less, it does exist.

D

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[CasGal 0]

The DZO has a buddy who is an examiner. He pops down at the end of the weekend and signs everybody off. The DZO is not affiliated with any organization. The training is handled by the DZO and a couple of his TIs.

[JohnMitchell 14]

CasGal

The DZO has a buddy who is an examiner. He pops down at the end of the weekend and signs everybody off. The DZO is not affiliated with any organization. The training is handled by the DZO and a couple of his TIs.

Sounds like an examiner that needs his rating yanked.

Is this a U.S. dz? Because those are willful violations of the FARs. We're not talking pissing off the USPA, we're talking big fines and loss of all kinds of licenses.

[stayhigh 2]

There are so many lack of USPA enforcements at every level, this so called governing body is a joke.

No one is gonna lose the rating, no one is gonna be fined.

Who is going to fine them? FAA? USPA? UPT?

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[Deisel 35]

Never been ramp checked, huh? Yes, the FAA will levy fines and pull licenses. UPT and USPA will revoke ratings.

And FYI - WE are a SELF governed body. By policing ourselves, we keep the FAA and other government entities out of our business. Examiners, S&TAs, RDs, NDs, and DZOs are all part of a system that is only as strong as it's weakest link.

D

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[stayhigh 2]

and the thread like this is even worse.

pure hearsay, this thread is worth nothing.

OP needs to give names.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[ufk22 32]

Contact your RD or the tandem manufacturer ( this can be anonymous) with names and the problem should get dealt with.
If this is true, it reflector poorly on all of us and is a disservice to passengers.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[Anachronist 2]

Have someone at the local DZ who is doing just this but as of yet doesn't have a TI or AFFI rating (though he has posted AFF "training jumps" on his FB page).

He travels a lot and jumps at various DZ's so it's hard to pin him down but it is virtually impossible he has the jumps he claims and his skill doesn't reflect it. He has also blatantly lied about jumps gone wrong (always someone else's fault or "I did that on purpose"). Little time in sport and doesn't get that what he is saying is stupid.

Best I figure is warn the folks in charge and let them handle it. But in your situation where the DZO is encouraging it then it becomes a lot more difficult. Skydiving is bizarrely forgiving of f**k ups. In my limited experience it takes a smoking gun for any action to be taken and it is often barely a slap on the wrist.

[kaiser 19]

Everyone involved in violating our rules needs to be put out in the open ASAP; no questions asked.

[IJskonijn 38]

kaiser

Everyone involved in violating our rules needs to be put out in the open ASAP; no questions asked.

Yes, but neither should there be a witch hunt. Hard proof should be provided together with putting the names out in the open. If no hard proof is available, report them to the correct people and have them investigate it.

Rules should be followed (as a rule), but that goes both ways. Good care must be taken to ensure you name, shame and punish the correct person, not just someone who happened to have made a few enemies here and there.

[fcajump 153]

+1 (really wish they would add a "Like"/"Me too" button)

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[DJL 232]

IJskonijn

***Everyone involved in violating our rules needs to be put out in the open ASAP; no questions asked.

Yes, but neither should there be a witch hunt. Hard proof should be provided together with putting the names out in the open. If no hard proof is available, report them to the correct people and have them investigate it.

Rules should be followed (as a rule), but that goes both ways. Good care must be taken to ensure you name, shame and punish the correct person, not just someone who happened to have made a few enemies here and there.

Alerting USPA will result in a shot across the bow and if someone knows they're under scrutiny hopefully they'll stop. USPA isn't some crime lab and they only know what USPA members are telling them. Trust me, I have no problem publicly shaming people who are putting others in danger. I'm sick of that shit. It's hard to call out even neighboring DZs because many of those people are our friends. However, we're not very good friends if we can't keep each other in check.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[raff 4]

I am guessing that you are a beginning jumper and, therefore, deserve the benefit of the doubt. This post sounds like you have a personal agenda. If, however, your allegations are true, this is not the place for you to express your concerns.

Dropzone.com is where, unfortunately, many people come to stir up excrement. I suggest that you do not join that throng. USPA, the FAA, and UPT (if the DZ uses their gear) have personnel who would be more likely to be in a position to address this issue.

Steve Rafferty

If you leave the plane without a parachute, you will be fine for the rest of your life.

[obelixtim 100]

raff

I am guessing that you are a beginning jumper and, therefore, deserve the benefit of the doubt. This post sounds like you have a personal agenda. If, however, your allegations are true, this is not the place for you to express your concerns.

Dropzone.com is where, unfortunately, many people come to stir up excrement. I suggest that you do not join that throng. USPA, the FAA, and UPT (if the DZ uses their gear) have personnel who would be more likely to be in a position to address this issue.

Steve Rafferty

Hmmmmm. Agendas?

The same could easily be said about your post.

And the experience of the OP is irrelevant. That comes across as a very unsubtle put down to me. The forums are all about asking for guidance..

The OP has been given some advice as to the correct path to follow, and that is a good thing IMO, especially if the concern is real. And it doesn't seem very far fetched, knowing skydivers and shady operators.

If this is happening, and there is no apparent method of sorting it out, then shining a light on the situation in public may be a very effective way of dealing with it. If it is not true, then the operator involved has no reason to worry.

Things get swept under the carpet all too often. We've seen it all before. If we don't police ourselves, we might find someone doing it for us, and that may not be nice for anyone.

And as far as dishing out dirt, people who try that on here seem to get found out pretty quickly, and put in their place.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[DJL 232]

If we can't call each other out then people will do whateverthefuck with impunity. If there's nothing to hide then it's a non-issue and at the worst annoying bullshit.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[JohnMitchell 14]

Where is this DZ that hands out ratings to anyone?

I want to get my IAD ticket.