Proposed Amendment of BSR concerning TI Medical

[normiss 620]

Insurance?

[skytribe 16]

Quote

USPA third-party liability insurance
Third-party liability insurance comes with membership. All USPA individual members, regular or temporary, have coverage for property damage and bodily injury liability insurance in accordance with all the terms and conditions of the policy. The third-party liability insurance does not cover medical benefits to the member. This insurance is valid for skydives made in accordance with USPA's Basic Safety Requirements and the Federal Aviation Regulations. Most drop zones assure that jumpers have this type of insurance by requiring current USPA membership to jump there.

It was just a thought as to possible reasons why USPA would want to track this.

[normiss 620]

I've often wondered how that third-party insurance plays into tandem ops.
I have been led to believe it doesn't, but I'm not sure.
So I didn't think it applied.

[skytribe 16]

It was a thought...

If not for insurance and there haven't been a history of incidents where this is a factor then why do USPA want to track this for tandem instructors.

[DanG 1]

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I guess the question is why they want to single out tandem instructors for tracking DUI convictions. Has there been a number of incidents where this was a factor ?.

The FAA medical is about a lot more than DUI convictions.

The discussion has become focused on DUI convictions, but I think the FAA medical has value in catching a lot of medical issues, DUI being only a single item.

- Dan G

[catfishhunter 1]

Said I wasn't going to post again so I am not going to rehash anything I said but I would like to ask the OP (again) how many TI's have lost their medical due to DUI's? Is this such a rampant problem resulting in a shortage of qualified TI's that there needs to be this Amendment?

Are there 1 or 1000 TI's that are out of a job because they failed their medical?

And my last clarification - You should be asking that the class 3 medical change to eliminate the DUI standard as the USPA has nothing to do with the medical except stating you must have one correct? So this has nothing to do with DUI's other then the government has included them in the medical correct?

I am really going to try and "listen" to your response on how the world will be safer for everyone especially tandem students by eliminating the class 3 medical. Please try to explain how that will happen and not that your trying to get your buddy his job back. I really will try to look at your sound reasoning as to how this will make people safer, if you can do that.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[normiss 620]

Have you taken one Dan?

I've thought renal function, vision test, slight hearing test, paperwork.
So...I would have to disagree.
Unless it's for folks that never get a complete physical, it's rather lame in regards to a physical IMO.

[DanG 1]

normiss

Have you taken one Dan?

I've thought renal function, vision test, slight hearing test, paperwork.
So...I would have to disagree.
Unless it's for folks that never get a complete physical, it's rather lame in regards to a physical IMO.

I have a third class medical as a pilot. I'm not a TI, nor ever was.

I agree it's pretty basic, so if you can't pass it should you really be responsible for a student's life?

- Dan G

[normiss 620]

I don't disagree with part just the background checks.
Make it a separate process if that's what they are after.
One day we will be criminals in this country try.

We are not terrorists.

[skytribe 16]

My standard medical check was more thorough than the FAA medical.

I have no problems with medicals and am happy to abide by that but have some justification for it to back up the reasoning. That reasoning probably applies to a lot of people.

In the UK I believe all jumpers over 40 are required to have medicals. It not an aviation medical and isn't used for tracking DUI's.

[Skydivesg 6]

Not to any one in particular ...

I know of a small Cessna DZ that had two TIs who both had not one - but two DUIs each.

I don't jump there any more.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[DanG 1]

I'm guessing (and only guessing) that the FAA medical is a requirement because USPA doesn't have the resources to manage their own medical certification process. It also makes sense, since TI's like to call themselves pilots in command, that they have the same medical fitness as airplane pilots in command. Heck, I think a really good argument could be made that a Class 2 is more appropriate, since TI's are engaging in commercial flight for hire.

- Dan G

[skytribe 16]

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USPA don't have resources to manage there own medical certification process.

Lets not try re-inventing the wheel here.

The guys in the UK appear to have a medical requirement for all jumpers that seems to work.

www.bpa.org.uk/forms/download/104/pdf

It doesn't appear to be rocket science and does detail alcohol or drug addiction. So if you are a alcoholic or drug addict then you could be denied.

[DanG 1]

That appears to be a medical statement from a doctor for new skydivers. Is it true that TI's in the UK don't need any further medical certification?

- Dan G

[skytribe 16]

The is an additional form for tandem instructors which can be signed by a number of different people.

www.bpa.org.uk/forms/download/107/pdf


It can be signed by a number of people and as you see it provides guidance to medical professional on conditions etc.

Quote

The standard of fitness required may be either equivalent to a CAA Class III Certificate or equivalent to a JAR Class II
Certificate depending on the examining doctor’s training/discretion.

So, if you have know a doctor who is also an instructor then they could sign off people and wouldn't need to be an aviation medical examiner.

Also they are assessing ability to do the job based upon physical conditions not based upon a past decision resulting in a DUI.

The fact that these documents are used for jumpers in general and are addressing an issue of physical capabilities to do the job at hand.

I have no problems with medicals - just use them for the purpose at hand (ensuring people do not have any health problem that would cause issue) - using for tracking something else is questionable.

I alternate yearly between aviation medicals and full normal medical. My doctor carrying out a normal medical is more complete than the aviation medical.

[PhreeZone 14]

Slight difference between the USPA and BPA in terms of the resources needed for management of something like this. At the end of 2014 the BPA had 6,269 full members and the USPA was around 37000. The USPA dues on an annual basis are around $60 and the BPA dues are around $155 a year. Are you willing to have dues that high or higher to have the same options as the BPA?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skytribe 16]

Your confusing apples and oranges. The amount of members and cost of membership are nothing to do with the purpose of medicals.

The USPA already require medicals on renewals for membership so having a doctor sign a form for an FAA medical or another medical has no additional cost for the association.

As for requiring medicals declarations for jumpers. Under 40 you can do self declaration, after that its the jumpers requirement to get this appropriately signed. Once again no cost to the association. The association doesn't need to record this information for renewal.

Its the individual jumpers responsibility to have documentation not the association. When you jump at a BPA DZ its simply a document the DZ checks before you jump, just like BPA membership.

The biggest component of the BPA membership I believe relates to insurance premiums for the 3rd party coverage.

[hackish 8]

Here is something to consider and while it may apply to the laws of Canada, it underlines the point.

Joe gets drunk. Goes over to his car, opens the door, crawls in the passenger side to grab his cellphone so he can call a cab. Having possession of his keys in the vehicle while being impaired (care and control) he is guilty of impaired driving.

Is it fair to say now that Joe can never be a tandem master?

-Michael

[peek 20]

hackish

Here is something to consider and while it may apply to the laws of Canada, it underlines the point.

Joe gets drunk. Goes over to his car, opens the door, crawls in the passenger side to grab his cellphone so he can call a cab. Having possession of his keys in the vehicle while being impaired (care and control) he is guilty of impaired driving.

Merely having possession of the keys? How else is Joe going to get into his car? What is he supposed to do? Unlock the car door and throw the keys on the ground while he opens the door, gets the phone, and re-locks the door? Is there a scenario by which he could do this without it being illegal?

I haven't checked local (US) laws, but I thought that the key had to be in the ignition switch to determine intent to drive.

[pchapman 261]

peek

I haven't checked local (US) laws, but I thought that the key had to be in the ignition switch to determine intent to drive.

This probably needs another forum, but I wondered about such stuff too.

Ok let's adjust the question:
So a thunderstorm starts, car windows are open, you're the only person around, so you insert your key and turn it to the Accessory position to use the electrically operated windows. Is the law stupid or smart about that?

[hackish 8]

pchapman

This probably needs another forum, but I wondered about such stuff too.

Ok let's adjust the question:
So a thunderstorm starts, car windows are open, you're the only person around, so you insert your key and turn it to the Accessory position to use the electrically operated windows. Is the law stupid or smart about that?

I'm not sure I agree with the law. I was a witness for a case like that once so it's not an old unused law. Owner had done a nice burnout before the party and broke the driveshaft so I had to go up on the stand to say there is no possible way sober or not he would have been able to drive the vehicle. Guy got off. Personally I think if the driveshaft on his mouth had been "decoupled" as well he wouldn't have been charged.

However, back to regular programming simple fact of the matter is that sometimes people do make poor judgements at one point in their lives. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll be a bad tandem instructor years later.

-Michael

[stayhigh 2]

Aren't you guys glad that they are not doing a drug test?

How come USPA enforces BSR on some violations and not apply to every other violations? I'm talking about higher rank member of USPA like Rich Winstock will get special treatment and not be punished at all and lower rank member will be punished. USPA enforces stupid rule like no prior DUIs, however there are tons of people who does line of coke as if it were cup of coffee through out the day, or USPA enforces rules of BSR on tandems canopy flights however they see fit.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[fcajump 153]

peek

***Here is something to consider and while it may apply to the laws of Canada, it underlines the point.

Joe gets drunk. Goes over to his car, opens the door, crawls in the passenger side to grab his cellphone so he can call a cab. Having possession of his keys in the vehicle while being impaired (care and control) he is guilty of impaired driving.

Merely having possession of the keys? How else is Joe going to get into his car? What is he supposed to do? Unlock the car door and throw the keys on the ground while he opens the door, gets the phone, and re-locks the door? Is there a scenario by which he could do this without it being illegal?

I haven't checked local (US) laws, but I thought that the key had to be in the ignition switch to determine intent to drive.

"parking while drunk" is illegal in some areas...
Colorado, Minnesota & Illinois
http://beforeitsnews.com/the-law/2013/06/wake-up-call-dont-get-a-dui-while-sleeping-and-parked-2451040.html

Alabama
http://legacy.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050412/dui.shtml

Florida
http://www.jgcrimlaw.com/actual-physical-control-dui.html

(that's in a couple minutes with google... saw California somewhere there too... Makes you wonder about those who drink while camped in an RV...???)

REALLY dumb law, but there you go...

(In some areas being underage and drinking will get your license suspended even if you don't have keys with you and haven't been near a car... )

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[fencebuster 7]

No one at my DZ would have a problem with random drug testing. But I could see how that could be a problem for USPA if such a requirement were imposed on instructors -- I would guess many would refuse and leave the sport. I simply think the requirement for a medical for only TI, not AFFI, not IAD/SL, is anachronism. I am planning to run for the Board in the coming election and, if I am elected I will be the voice of the skydivers who believe our organization spends too much time worrying about manufacturers and not enough time making skydiving more inviting for the weekend fun jumper.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[topdocker 0]

Maybe we should require a Class 3 medical to be on the BOD!

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