180's are bad

[stayhigh 2]

We should take a note that there is no mention of how we can land our tandem parachute in UPT Sigma/Vector manual. So therefore all those people who THINKS that he did a illegal turn, those people are wrong.

So let's stop talking about hook turn. Let's focus on why this Ti didn't clear the airspace.

I maybe wrong about the no mentioning of how we can turn per manual. If someone finds it, please correct me.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[obelixtim 100]

Quote

We should take a note that there is no mention of how we can land our tandem parachute in UPT Sigma/Vector manual.

I don't know why you are so focussed on "rules" about how things should be done, by UPT or anyone else about landings.

If you knew anything about skydiving, you might realise that fixed "rules" set things in concrete, and provide a free stick for the litigators in society to beat people and operators with at the slightest hint of an infraction.

Some things can be set in stone, like reserve repack cycles for instance, simple and clear, no room for misunderstanding.

Other aspects (opening altitudes for example) are not fixed by a set rule, but rather a recommendation, which everyone with a brain accepts is a good thing due to the variables you get when opening a parachute. People accept there is a good reason for that "rule" and are generally sensible about it.

For that reason there is a reluctance to emphasise fixed rules about many aspects of skydiving, rather there are accepted recommendations. This is quite deliberate.

But it is expected that skydivers can display a certain amount of common sense when it comes to looking after their lives and the lives of others. Its evident common sense ain't that common, not something hotshots are known for.

Your crying about there being no "rules" for landing a tandem canopy meaning you can do what you like for your own "fun" shows a complete disregard for what has evolved as good practice since tandems began, taking into account the first priority a TI has, looking after his rider.

And justifying doing hookies "because everyone does it" when clearly they don't, just shows someone who has the sheep mentality and doesn't have the maturity to make a sensible judgement.

All the advice about landing a tandem canopy comes from lessons learnt from tandem day one, as well as general advice about canopy flight and control that applies to all jumps, and is promulgated by the likes of Brian Germain.

Quote

So therefore all those people who THINKS that he did a illegal turn, those people are wrong.

There was nothing illegal about the turn, and no one is saying so. What "all those people" out there are saying is that it flies in the face of good practice, and was nothing less than stupid.

They are not "wrong" about that.

If you want to do 180 or bigger hook turns, do it solo, feel free to drill yourself into the deck. But don't carry some poor fare paying person to their death because you are too cool to fuck up, or realise your responsibilities.

The people who are advising caution have seen plenty like you.

When you have 30 or 40 years of skydiving experience, come back and tell us what you've learned.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[stayhigh 2]

Because of that rule, I don't go drogueless beyond 5 sec.

Because of that rule I don't do CRW.

If it wasn't for that rule, I'll be going drogueless till 7 grand. If it wasn't for that rule, I'll be doing CRW at the end of my every single jump.

Because there is a law about murder, I don't kill people. Like my other thread, if murder were legal or even misdemeanor, I'll gladly pay couple hundred bucks to stab someone in the mouth.

If UPT are so against it, it would've been on the manual by now. As for the moment there are none. So we continue to hook it. As I have done for thousands of jumps, standing most of them up.

Once the rules are in placed, I'll follow it, before that don't tell the other instructors that can actually stand up their landing, what to do. If you are sitting em down, you better be one of those old Ti, who has over 10000 jumps and has hip and back problem.

Sounds way more sheepy to follow everyone else that suck and slide in every time.

Almost same exact logic of some old dude, saying swooping is bad, when themselves fly Specter 150 and and land shitty.

I much rather put my mom front of someone who can hook it and stand it up vs some sorry ass Ti, who only knows how to use one fucking tool in the bag and that's coming straight in.

I'm emphasizing on the RULE part due to people crying and whining about how illegal turn that was, when it was not. They should focus more on clearing air space vs tandem hook turns.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[obelixtim 100]

stayhigh

Because of that rule, I don't go drogueless beyond 5 sec.

Because of that rule I don't do CRW.

If it wasn't for that rule, I'll be going drogueless till 7 grand. If it wasn't for that rule, I'll be doing CRW at the end of my every single jump.

Because there is a law about murder, I don't kill people. Like my other thread, if murder were legal or even misdemeanor, I'll gladly pay couple hundred bucks to stab someone in the mouth.

If UPT are so against it, it would've been on the manual by now. As for the moment there are none. So we continue to hook it. As I have done for thousands of jumps, standing most of them up.

Once the rules are in placed, I'll follow it, before that don't tell the other instructors that can actually stand up their landing, what to do. If you are sitting em down, you better be one of those old Ti, who has over 10000 jumps and has hip and back problem.

Sounds way more sheepy to follow everyone else that suck and slide in every time.

Almost same exact logic of some old dude, saying swooping is bad, when themselves fly Specter 150 and and land shitty.

I much rather put my mom front of someone who can hook it and stand it up vs some sorry ass Ti, who only knows how to use one fucking tool in the bag and that's coming straight in.

I'm emphasizing on the RULE part due to people crying and whining about how illegal turn that was, when it was not. They should focus more on clearing air space vs tandem hook turns.

Its clear you don't understand the difference between rules and recommendations. Its lucky they don't have rules about over inflated egos.

But I'll excuse that, because you are a newbie to the sport.

I see with 24 votes cast you are leading the poll with a whopping 20% of the vote. I guess you'll claim victory "because all the cool dudes don't come on dorkzone.com".

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[stayhigh 2]

Again, let's talk about issue of clearing air space before talking about anything else.

That's why I've been preaching 270 to other tis that only does 180. Offers way better field of view, and it offers more time to bail or pick other direction. If the wind switches at the last second if you are setting up for 180 you are pretty much commited. But if you are doing 270 you can hook it either direction.

It is funny how some of these people that does 180 gives me shit for doing 270 and calling me reckless. It is like pot calling kettle black. Because of people like this who refuses to learn any other way besides their way, I can't work at a dropzone like Spaceland. They make you come in with students hand in the toggle. Horrible idea.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[Labrat 0]

Forget Bill Booth, maybe you should listen to Bryan Burke. You do know who he is right?

[stayhigh 2]

I don't agree with his rules either. 180 coming in from both direction at SDAZ? That's crazy. Crowded main landing area should be done with 90 degree or less coming in from same direction like Perris.

The accident happened in tandem factory. They rarely do AFF, and the fun jumpers gets bumped around all day long.

and Bryan Burke doesn't have any say over tandem rules. Bill Booth does.

He may have saying over at his dropzone. His place, his rules. He can make his Ti come in straight in all day long. I just won't jump there, just like I'll never work at Spaceland due to their tandem landing procedure.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[obelixtim 100]

stayhigh

I don't agree with his rules either. 180 coming in from both direction at SDAZ? That's crazy. Crowded main landing area should be done with 90 degree or less coming in from same direction like Perris.

The accident happened in tandem factory. They rarely do AFF, and the fun jumpers gets bumped around all day long.

and Bryan Burke doesn't have any say over tandem rules. Bill Booth does.

He may have saying over at his dropzone. His place, his rules. He can make his Ti come in straight in all day long. I just won't jump there, just like I'll never work at Spaceland due to their tandem landing procedure.

Thinly disguised: "they gave me the order of the boot, because I knew better".

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[stayhigh 2]

This thread officially became penis measuring contest without actual penis involved.

I'll be over at Speaker's Corner and talk about something we have absolutely zero control over.

Later.

270!!!!!!

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[obelixtim 100]

stayhigh

This thread officially became penis measuring contest without actual penis involved.

I'll be over at Speaker's Corner and talk about something we have absolutely zero control over.

Later.

270!!!!!!

Sorry to hear about your problem in this department.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[airsport 0]

jacketsdb23

Brake-surge as its been referred to in this thread. Predictable and works just fine.

I beg to differ...

I've yet to pound in on a turning approach to landing. 90, 180....

But the brake and surge approach has put me on the ground way harder than I could ever screw up a turn to final.

When you slow the parachute down and then dive it--your taking away flare energy and if your timing is off you'll be hitting the ground hard with no way to fix it. Certainly when the winds are bumpy.

Flying the canopy at full flight and making a turn to final gives you more speed/energy to work with for a much softer arrival. Also you have more options, stop the turn sooner or continue a bit longer to get the best possible flare. For me this beats the stall surge method.

FWIW I could care less about standing every landing up. If its there great, if it isn't great. Some landing areas make it easy to ski on in and stand up. Others not so forgiving...

Safe landings.....

[skytribe 16]

stayhigh

Tandem commandments are not RULES, they are an advice. UPT manual is the rule, and no where it mentions no hook turns.

Who came up with no hook turns with tandems because of the rule story in first place? Fun nazis?

After some discussion with Mike Rinaldi at Strong Enterprises about the commandments and this is his response.

Quote

First of all the commandments are not recommendations they are rules. The commandments were written by 3 U.S. Tandem manufacturers - Strong Enterprises, United Parachute Technologies (UPT), Parachute Labs (Jump Shack) and a representative from Europe. After the fact Plexis Tandem got involved and also accepted the commandments as rules. We work closely with the USPA and where possible we’ve made the BSR’s line up with the commandments. The idea behind the commandments was to have all the representatives of Tandem come up with basic safety requirements that we all required. We felt that if we all stood together that Tandem Instructors would take it more seriously and we could improve the safety of Tandem jumping.

Take that as you will - it seems to be pretty straightforward and is the general opinion I got at the Tandem presentation at Symposium with all the representatives from the manufacturers there. They showed a video of a tandem instructor hooking a tandem and killing the student. Very graphic. You think it wont happen to you - don't delude yourself. It can happen to anyone.

So that answers your question who came up with the commandments. The tandem equipment manufacturers....

[DocPop 1]

airsport

***Brake-surge as its been referred to in this thread. Predictable and works just fine.

I beg to differ...

I've yet to pound in on a turning approach to landing. 90, 180....

But the brake and surge approach has put me on the ground way harder than I could ever screw up a turn to final.

When you slow the parachute down and then dive it--your taking away flare energy and if your timing is off you'll be hitting the ground hard with no way to fix it. Certainly when the winds are bumpy.

If you initiate a canopy flight cycle by any means (surge or turn recovery) you can end up with reduced flare power if you time it wrong.

I think your argument is a case of "I can't do it, therefore it can't be done".

[Bolded for your convenience]

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[airsport 0]

Your funny! And missed the point!

DocPop

******Brake-surge as its been referred to in this thread. Predictable and works just fine.

I beg to differ...

I've yet to pound in on a turning approach to landing. 90, 180....

But the brake and surge approach has put me on the ground way harder than I could ever screw up a turn to final.

When you slow the parachute down and then dive it--your taking away flare energy and if your timing is off you'll be hitting the ground hard with no way to fix it. Certainly when the winds are bumpy.

If you initiate a canopy flight cycle by any means (surge or turn recovery) you can end up with reduced flare power if you time it wrong.

I think your argument is a case of "I can't do it, therefore it can't be done".

[Bolded for your convenience]

[FB1609 0]

stayhigh

gives me shit for doing 270 and calling me reckless. It is like pot calling kettle black. Because of people like this who refuses to learn any other way besides their way, I can't work at a dropzone like Spaceland. They make you come in with students hand in the toggle. Horrible idea.

I would NEVER send someone on a tandem with you

[DougH 270]

I think this thread has run its course.

We are all Troll bait for Mr. Stayhigh, and from the sound of it his only involvement in tandems today is getting our goat on this forum.

Either way, I don't give a shit if I am not the right stuff for Hawaii. I am a weekend warrior, if I hit 5000 tandems in my career I will be happy.

I don't think the mark of a good tandem instructor is being a bad ass that can fly his tandems on all axis, who takes his students head down, sucks down a drogue deployment, doesn't want them to arch or be involved students, and who toggle whips his landings. Personally I think that describes a bad ass skydiver who is a shitty tandem instructor.

And I don't think this describes most of our full time instructors, but I am sure that it rounds up a few full time instructors (and some hot shit weekend guys too) that are bored and can't grasp the fact that they chose to be full time instructors, and that means putting the student first.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DocPop 1]

airsport

Your funny! And missed the point!



*********Brake-surge as its been referred to in this thread. Predictable and works just fine.

I beg to differ...

I've yet to pound in on a turning approach to landing. 90, 180....

But the brake and surge approach has put me on the ground way harder than I could ever screw up a turn to final.

When you slow the parachute down and then dive it--your taking away flare energy and if your timing is off you'll be hitting the ground hard with no way to fix it. Certainly when the winds are bumpy.

If you initiate a canopy flight cycle by any means (surge or turn recovery) you can end up with reduced flare power if you time it wrong.

I think your argument is a case of "I can't do it, therefore it can't be done".

[Bolded for your convenience]

So tell me what the point is.
I believe mine was quite clear.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[fencebuster 7]

Ding, ding, ding . . . . We have a winner! It is not about the instructor, it is about providing a professional and as risk free as possible experience for the student and, possibly, getting the student to come back as an AFF student.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[pope 0]

coozer

Quote

100% of the blame goes to the guy who has 1000's of jumps and above. 0 goes to the guy who has less than 10 and below.
If you can not agree with that, I never want to jump with you ever at same load.

You can blame it on Ti, not being able to see due to 180. That's really easy solution if one does 270's.

Bullshit.

the student (or whoever was in control of his position) was 'partly' to blame. I clearly stated that the majority of the blame goes on the TM.

If you land downwind into the traffic at any DZ you are going to get a butt whippin... well I really hope so anyway.

There is a really good reason you should not land in the opposite direction of traffic... what do you think that reason might be?

The lower canopy was to the tandem's left side as he approached, he only needed to look before turning...

I am all for 180's on a tandem if the instructor is competent, 270's should be left for wing loadings of more than 1.5 in my opinion. However this is subjective and is a tangent away from the lack of general awareness that was the 'major' cause of this incident.

Firstly, I hope everyone involved is unhurt and doing well.

Sorry, I couldn't be bothered to sift through all the crap I've seen in this thread, but just wanted to offer my opinion, FWIW:

The only person who WASN'T at fault in this incident was the tandem passenger (assuming they didn't reach up and yank down the left toggle, overpowering the TI).

My opinion on 180's (even at altitude) can be summed up pretty simply with something that is taught to every beginning canopy pilot (or DRIVER for that matter); 'look first, then turn.' If common sense didn't make you understand this point, this video is a perfect graphic example of why. You have blind spots...

INCLUDING being struck by a bolt of lightning on a solo freefall jump, the responsibility for our incidents lies smack dab in the middle of each of our laps. We CHOOSE to jump out of an airplane.
If one of the people on my freefly jump corks and breaks me, did I have the knowledge to take that into consideration BEFORE I JUMPED with them? Yes.
To do gear checks? Yes.
Any other actions/decisions I make/do not make? Of course.
Therefore, it's MY OWN fault if I get hurt.
Is that fair? Maybe not.
Is it necessary to be fair? NO.

People in these forums (and in real life for that matter) are always so quick to point fingers and assign blame rather than simply learn lessons from incidents such as this. People take risks, make mistakes--sometimes at high prices.
Hope this was a positive contribution.

[michalm21 0]

So let me understand this better - the injured student is also to blame because ... he didn't foresee that an experienced tandem instructor would hook turn into him? ... because he jumped out of a plane?
That's quite an outlook you got!

[gowlerk 1,901]

michalm21

So let me understand this better - the injured student is also to blame because ... he didn't foresee that an experienced tandem instructor would hook turn into him? ... because he jumped out of a plane?
That's quite an outlook you got!

You`ve got it partly. There is blame for both parties. The TI for the obvious reason. The student, (if he was), for not following the pattern.

But as several people have pointed out, it`s not an exercise in finding blame. That`s for lawyers, judges and such. We are here to figure out how to avoid things like this happening to us.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[bigbearfng 9]

FB1609

*** gives me shit for doing 270 and calling me reckless. It is like pot calling kettle black. Because of people like this who refuses to learn any other way besides their way, I can't work at a dropzone like Spaceland. They make you come in with students hand in the toggle. Horrible idea.

I would NEVER send someone on a tandem with you

Stayhigh-could you please let us know where you throw drogues?
So I can add it to the list of where I will never send any of my friends or family for tandem or aff.
What's that saying? Vote with your feet and your dollars!

[pope 0]

michalm21

So let me understand this better - the injured student is also to blame because ... he didn't foresee that an experienced tandem instructor would hook turn into him? ... because he jumped out of a plane?
That's quite an outlook you got!

I'm sorry I guess I could have been more clear, but generally speaking, yes that's what I mean.

What I was trying to get at is that when we make the choice to jump out of an airplane each time, we each take personal responsibility to make educated decisions about our jumps that help keep incidents like this from happening.
Even if the student(?) was on radios, even if it was their first jump, did they not (presumably) go through a ground school previous to the jump?

Another scenario:
Let's say Johnny buys a street motorcycle to commute to work. He is taught that the real danger of riding a motorcycle amongst traffic isn't necessarily the bike, but rather inattentive (automobile) drivers who don't bother to look for him.

On his way to work, as he sits in the blind spot of the car next to him, the car suddenly changes lanes right into him and causes him to crash.

Yes, the driver of the car should not have changed lanes into him, and that was his mistake.
But also, the driver of the bike also was aware that he needs to ride that thing as if everyone else is trying to kill him--assuming that they not only don't see him, but are also going to do some stupid shit to try to make them crash.
So agree or not, but that's how I feel about it.

Mostly the real point I was trying to make is that BLAME is the least important thing to assign once the accident has happened and the carnage is being sorted out. That's the time to be constructive and for people to learn from others' mistakes.

[stayhigh 2]

After week and 122 replies went by.
Guess what?
Nothing has changed. They are still hooking it.
Thank you for your voice of concern. Have a nice day.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[miconar 0]

Right. Let's only voice our concerns when the solution is clear and change is unavoidable.

So your points thus far have been:
*nothing is wrong. The TI did great and the student was stupid.
*the TI is wrong, should have done a bigger turn.
*the mfg's and uspa are wrong, they write impossible to enforce rules and don't enforce them. But also they shouldn't make those rules because they are wrong, and anyway they can't be enforced. And shouldn't be either.
*nothing can be done.
*nothing should be done.
*nothing will be done.
*see? Nothing happened. It's been a full week now and nothing changed anywhere for anyone. Definitely.