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Adamkrum

class III medical question in relation to DUI

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getting ready to do tandem rating course, went to get my medical yesterday and the only issue that came up was from tuthfully answering the dui quesiton,
i had a DUI in 2009 and cleared it up with an administrative plea (accelerated rehabilitative disposition ARD in pennsylvania) which means i've never had a conviction, restored my driving privlege and can truthfully(without the threat of purgery) answer i've never been convicted of a crime to prospective employers, so the doc said he'd get in contact with the faa and find out if i need documentation of treatment etc to finish and get the medical certificate.
i know i will be able to resolve these issues and get a medical certificate in the end but i was curious as to being able to do a ratings course with the certificate pending and submit for the rating once i receive the certificate?
anyone have any advice or similar experience that can give advice would be greatly appreciated

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If this was in the last 5 years from the date of the medical application you will need to produce the documents. If you blew .15 or more or refused to blow you will be kicked up to the FAA for a decision. If this happens you should get an AME that knows what he is doing in this situation as one who does not can really drag out the process.

Sorry if that was not the side of this you wanted info on. Be careful about counting on a medical certificate that you do not have in your hands, it has cost others considerable money.

Good Luck.

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I know of one instructor examiner who had a prospective TI in a course who did not hold a medical at the time of the course.

The Student did a solo jump, and a jump with the IE. For the rest of the jumps in the course, the IE required that the passenger be a TI with a valid medical.

I believe his words were "as long as one of you has a valid medical, that meets the requirement."

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Without a valid medical in your posession and available for any FAA examiner that may ask to see it, you cannot act as a Pilot in Command (Tandem Instructor). To do it anyway could potentially put everyone involved (DZO, pilot, TI Examiner) at risk. No cert = no course.
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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That is, (as you know) because there is no FAR language that states, demands, mandates or requires that a TI hold a valid class 3 or higher medical... FAR 105.45 is clear as to what it says.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=69e17bead06f8e759487ecd9be2b368a&node=14:2.0.1.3.17.2.9.3&rgn=div8

Quote

§105.45 Use of tandem parachute systems.

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless—

(1) One of the parachutists using the tandem parachute system is the parachutist in command, and meets the following requirements:

(i) Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting, and must provide documentation that the parachutist—

(ii) Has completed a minimum of 500 freefall parachute jumps using a ram-air parachute, and

(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and

(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator.

(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.

(2) The person acting as parachutist in command:

(i) Has briefed the passenger parachutist before boarding the aircraft. The briefing must include the procedures to be used in case of an emergency with the aircraft or after exiting the aircraft, while preparing to exit and exiting the aircraft, freefall, operating the parachute after freefall, landing approach, and landing.

(ii) Uses the harness position prescribed by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute equipment.

(b) No person may make a parachute jump with a tandem parachute system unless—

(1) The main parachute has been packed by a certificated parachute rigger, the parachutist in command making the next jump with that parachute, or a person under the direct supervision of a certificated parachute rigger.

(2) The reserve parachute has been packed by a certificated parachute rigger in accordance with §105.43(b) of this part.

(3) The tandem parachute system contains an operational automatic activation device for the reserve parachute, approved by the manufacturer of that tandem parachute system. The device must—

(i) Have been maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions, and

(ii) Be armed during each tandem parachute operation.

(4) The passenger parachutist is provided with a manual main parachute activation device and instructed on the use of that device, if required by the owner/operator.

(5) The main parachute is equipped with a single-point release system.

(6) The reserve parachute meets Technical Standard Order C23 specifications.


you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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My source is UPT and USPA. The FAA requires that the TI complete the manfacturer's course per FAR 105.

So the bottom line here is that the medical cert is required. Although it does appear that it's a bit of a chicken or egg question.
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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General comment, not directed at anyone in particular:

If you are conducting a UPT Vector/Sigma tandem course, the candidate is required to obtain the current/valid medical prior to making any jumps on the Vector/Sigma tandem system, even as a solo jumper in the course. On page two of form 05553 "Tandem Instructor Certification Form" it states that the candidate needs to possess the required pre-quals including the class III when making application for the training, not the rating.

The USPA IRM is worded in a way that says the candidate must possess the class III to earn the rating rather than to attend the course, but the intent is the same, the candidate is intended to have the medical before the course starts.

The reason is simple. Every so often a person fails a medical. Sometimes for foreseen reasons, some times for unforeseen reasons. Either way, when an examiner that trains someone to make tandem jumps without a valid medical for the candidate, they risk that the candidate can (and it has happened multiple times already) then fail the medical, but go on to misrepresent that they have a rating, based on having attended the course.

There has even been one tandem fatality on a tandem course jump years ago with a highly skilled tandem examiner, so to say that "they're with me, nothing is going to happen" is not an absolute either. One of the worst things that could happen to tandem in this day an age is a tandem instructor candidate involved in a fatal tandem training jump incident without possessing the necessary documentation, in this case, a valid medical, to be authorized to be making that training jump.

If anyone, instructor or examiner, has any questions about the specifics of medicals as they pertain to UPT, please feel free to contact me at tom@uptvector.com. If its for Strong of JS, contact their tandem administrators with certification questions. And of course USPA's Director of Safety and Training is also available for consultation on any tandem system trained under USPA.

As an FAA rep once told a rigging class I was in 12 years ago: "If you ask us before the mistake is made, we can help correct it. If your talking to us after an accident happens, our hands are tied."

I am attaching the verbiage of the UPT form to this post.
Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

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stratostar

That is, (as you know) because there is no FAR language that states, demands, mandates or requires that a TI hold a valid class 3 or higher medical... FAR 105.45 is clear as to what it says.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=69e17bead06f8e759487ecd9be2b368a&node=14:2.0.1.3.17.2.9.3&rgn=div8

Quote

§105.45 Use of tandem parachute systems.

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless—

(1) One of the parachutists using the tandem parachute system is the parachutist in command, and meets the following requirements:

(i) Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting, and must provide documentation that the parachutist—

(ii) Has completed a minimum of 500 freefall parachute jumps using a ram-air parachute, and

(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and

(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator.

(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.

(2) The person acting as parachutist in command:

(i) Has briefed the passenger parachutist before boarding the aircraft. The briefing must include the procedures to be used in case of an emergency with the aircraft or after exiting the aircraft, while preparing to exit and exiting the aircraft, freefall, operating the parachute after freefall, landing approach, and landing.

(ii) Uses the harness position prescribed by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute equipment.

(b) No person may make a parachute jump with a tandem parachute system unless—

(1) The main parachute has been packed by a certificated parachute rigger, the parachutist in command making the next jump with that parachute, or a person under the direct supervision of a certificated parachute rigger.

(2) The reserve parachute has been packed by a certificated parachute rigger in accordance with §105.43(b) of this part.

(3) The tandem parachute system contains an operational automatic activation device for the reserve parachute, approved by the manufacturer of that tandem parachute system. The device must—

(i) Have been maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions, and

(ii) Be armed during each tandem parachute operation.

(4) The passenger parachutist is provided with a manual main parachute activation device and instructed on the use of that device, if required by the owner/operator.

(5) The main parachute is equipped with a single-point release system.

(6) The reserve parachute meets Technical Standard Order C23 specifications.




I can see the argument that 1-iv and 1-v does.
But, yes, it is not really clear.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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Matt, my reply was to such statements:

Quote

Without a valid medical in your posession and available for any FAA examiner that may ask to see it, you cannot act as a Pilot in Command (Tandem Instructor). To do it anyway could potentially put everyone involved (DZO, pilot, TI Examiner) at risk.



Well no where in 105.45 do I read that says I MUST have a current class 3 medical or higher in order to comply with 105.45, iV or V say nothing about having a medical, subsection B make even more clear what is required to act as PIC, no where in there does it say hold a class 3 medical or higher. Also I fail to see in there where it states I must present any such medical to an FAA field inspector for their inspection on demand.

Quote

(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator.

(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.



Sounds like I could have passed a RWS course on a vector one and also a strong course on DHT in the early 90's and now as a non USPA member, at a NON uspa dz, I could in fact as a legal mfg rating holder having passed their course comply with both of those and not hold any damn medical nor any USPA bullshit mandates.... There is not a damn thing the USPA nor Strong or UPT could do about it. more so if I own the gear, and it's all legal!

Quote

(b) No person may make a parachute jump with a tandem parachute system unless—

(1) The main parachute has been packed by a certificated parachute rigger, the parachutist in command making the next jump with that parachute, or a person under the direct supervision of a certificated parachute rigger.

(2) The reserve parachute has been packed by a certificated parachute rigger in accordance with §105.43(b) of this part.

(3) The tandem parachute system contains an operational automatic activation device for the reserve parachute, approved by the manufacturer of that tandem parachute system. The device must—

(i) Have been maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions, and

(ii) Be armed during each tandem parachute operation.

(4) The passenger parachutist is provided with a manual main parachute activation device and instructed on the use of that device, if required by the owner/operator.

(5) The main parachute is equipped with a single-point release system.

(6) The reserve parachute meets Technical Standard Order C23 specifications.


you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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But, my understanding of iv and v, is that the manufacturer has the discretion and won't approve your completing the course with out the Physical.

So is it spelled out and perfectly clear? Nope. But, I think Tom answered it, as well as who ever it was who quoted an FAA rep.

Personally, they (USPA, FAA, and ALL Manufacturers) need to make this clear, either have a requirement and spell it out, or don't.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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stratostar


Sounds like I could have passed a RWS course on a vector one and also a strong course on DHT in the early 90's and now as a non USPA member, at a NON uspa dz, I could in fact as a legal mfg rating holder having passed their course comply with both of those and not hold any damn medical nor any USPA bullshit mandates.... There is not a damn thing the USPA nor Strong or UPT could do about it. more so if I own the gear, and it's all legal!



I think you might have missed section 1.iii:

Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA

I'm not sure how you could have a master parachute license recognized by the FAA without being a USPA member (unless if they will recognize licenses from another country - anyone know if the FAA will recognize international organizations?).

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I'm not sure how you could have a master parachute license recognized by the FAA without being a USPA member



They don't revoke my licenses when I don't renew my membership, I still have a master license I earned via the USPA when I was a member.... and that is good enough for the FAA, nothing in the FAA regs says I have to have a current membership in a trade org. It just says to been issued a license by a recognized organization. It goes on to state even more clear.

Quote

Sec. 105.45 Use of tandem parachute systems

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless--

(1) One of the parachutists using the tandem parachute system is the parachutist in command, and meets the following requirements:

(i) Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting, and must provide documentation that the parachutist--

(ii) Has completed a minimum of 500 freefall parachute jumps using a ram-air parachute, and

(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and

(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator.

(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.



If your going to quote the damn thing, then lets get it in context and quote the full reg! DO you see anywhere in there that it states I'm required to have a current USPA membership, or any other memberships in a trade org?

NOPE! All I need is an issued masters license, USPA or equivalent FAI license the admin (FAA) will accept, and have passed a mfg's course and have proof of doing so or a course acceptable to the Administrator and I'm good to go, don't even need no stinking medical or USPA membership and it is all legal!
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Why? What's the point of all this? You obviously have a problem with the requirement. You care to explain? Seems to me that the easiest path is to simply play ball and get the medical cert along with the UPT and USPA docs. What do you gain by not doing so?
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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Let me explain to you... that one I do have all my papers in order and I'm 100% legal to conduct operations in the USA.

2nd. The only problem I have with any of it is the bullshit game playing shit the USPA does in regards to the medical, where as the USPA HQ and BOD have been giving a pass to life long drunks who are such fuck ups the state they reside in revoked for life their rights to drive a car because of the repeated abuse of booze and all the 17 or so DUI's they got!

USPA wants to preach all this crap to the rest of us about how we can't use a DOT medical card for an equivalent, when the FAA resides in the house of the DOT! So it is all cool for the military guys to get a pass with their medicals, and the life time drunk to get a pass, of a doctors note, yet hard working stiffs who can comply and can present legal equivalents are told no......

Because of the DUI reporting! BULLSHIT!

Oh and by the way, can you find in the USPA sims or other place where there is a so called "masters license" now.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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So you have a problem with the fact that there are TIs out there that maybe shouldn’t be doing tandems. That’s another matter entirely. And I’m not so sure that it makes sense to bash the system because of that. This is USPA politics that you’re talking about and admittedly, I know nothing about it. So maybe there should be another thread to cover it. And I’m not sure what this has to do with the military which operates under completely different rules.
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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And I’m not sure what this has to do with the military which operates under completely different rules.



Not in the civilian world nor USPA. same rules apply to all. Wink wink:D
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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stratostar


They don't revoke my licenses when I don't renew my membership, I still have a master license I earned via the USPA when I was a member.... and that is good enough for the FAA, nothing in the FAA regs says I have to have a current membership in a trade org. It just says to been issued a license by a recognized organization. It goes on to state even more



The USPA appears to disagree with you, from the USPA website:

B. General conditions for licenses

1. USPA licenses are valid only while the holder is a current regular USPA member; there is no other renewal requirement.

Link - http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section3/tabid/165/Default.aspx

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JFish

The USPA appears to disagree with you, from the USPA website: B. General conditions for licenses 1. USPA licenses are valid only while the holder is a current regular USPA member; there is no other renewal requirement.



Sec. 105.45 lists the things that the FAA wants the tandem parachutist in command to have earned, or qualifications to have. I would interpret that (assuming that my interpretation holds any weight) to mean that once the master parachutist license had been earned, that this qualifies the person to be a parachutist in command.

Actually, no USPA member now holds a "valid" or current master parachutist license, because the names "master", etc., were eliminated from the license descriptions some years ago.

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peek



Sec. 105.45 lists the things that the FAA wants the tandem parachutist in command to have earned, or qualifications to have. I would interpret that (assuming that my interpretation holds any weight) to mean that once the master parachutist license had been earned, that this qualifies the person to be a parachutist in command.

Actually, no USPA member now holds a "valid" or current master parachutist license, because the names "master", etc., were eliminated from the license descriptions some years ago.



I would interpret this differently (and this is just my opinion). 105.45 states that you have to "hold" the license, not that you have earned the license at some point in the past. If your license is not valid I would think that you do not "hold" the license.

Regarding the master license, my understanding is that the D license is the equivalent of the master license. Although the FAA has not updated the language in 105.45 the D license is accepted as a master license for these purposes.

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(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA,



And based on that one key word I would say you are wrong on both counts, it says nothing about me being a current member of any trade org, and in fact it says issued. I have a masters license that was...... wait for it..... ISSUED by a org recognized by the FAA and for that matter I'm pretty sure it would pass with flying colors at my local FSDO as acceptable to the Administrator for complying with the reg as written.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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I think that we are going to end up disagreeing on this.

I am not arguing that the license was issued by the USPA, but in my opinion the underlying assumption in the phrase "hold a license" is that the license must be valid. If you do not need to have a valid license, would someone who has had their license suspended be able to become a TI? After all, they do have a license, it has just been suspended (in the same way that someone who is not a USPA member holds a license, it is just not valid).

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FAA is under DOT. How does DOT use the phrase "hold a license" in other context?

I have a feeling that they look to current status in other areas like CDL's.

I do think the class III requirement is a bunch of bullshit. If the USPA was actually concerned about student safety they would be pushing for annual stress tests, drug tests, maybe an drogue interlock with a built in breathalyzer for our boozier tandem instructors.

And we all need psych evals!
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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