Another class 3 med question.

[swoopfly 5]

hey all,

Just curious, i have done some tandems for other dzs than my home dz. I know they need to check your credentials before ever letting you take a customer. But they also want to see your class 3 medical on the spot. The question i always think is, If you have your USPA card in date with the ratings, why would they need to verify your medical is in date? As you have to verify this with USPA before they will issue you the in date card displaying your ratings. Wouldnt USPA card showing your ratings validate your medical as you have to show this to USPA to renew anyway?

[djmarvin 2]

You have to provide a copy of your medical to USPA, they only verify it is valid at the time of renewal. So you can have a USPA Tandem rating with an expired medical. Any smart DZO would require his staff to provide copies of all documents required to do their job. If their were ever an issue the DZO KNOWS and has proof that the Instructor was properly rated.

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[diablopilot 2]

Because it's their sandbox and their toys.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[matthewcline 0]

IIRC, the FAA Class III must be in your possession at all times when working under it. Just like any Pilot or crew member. So it can be inspected by the FAA Rep on the spot.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Ron 7]

matthewcline

IIRC, the FAA Class III must be in your possession at all times when working under it. Just like any Pilot or crew member. So it can be inspected by the FAA Rep on the spot.

Matt

Except the FAA does not care about the medical for TI's. It is pure USPA.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[chemist 0]

Ron

***IIRC, the FAA Class III must be in your possession at all times when working under it. Just like any Pilot or crew member. So it can be inspected by the FAA Rep on the spot.

Matt

Except the FAA does not care about the medical for TI's. It is pure USPA.

Does anybody know exactly what kind of action USPA takes against DZs who hire TIs without medicals? AND do they always know if a DZ has a TI who has no medical or does it take work on their part to find out?

[normiss 622]

EVERY DZ I have worked for has always asked for ALL of my paperwork.
Repeated annually.

Software.

[djmarvin 2]

chemist

Does anybody know exactly what kind of action USPA takes against DZs who hire TIs without medicals? AND do they always know if a DZ has a TI who has no medical or does it take work on their part to find out?

Suspension of the group membership as well as suspension of individuals membership and rating.

Self policing is basically it. If USPA has reasons to believe there is a problem, then they may start digging.

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[ChrisD 0]

Here is a link that makes for interesting reading:

III class guide for Practitioners
Hot off the press,... Dec, 2013


Now don't take me the wrong way on this one, I'm not flaming anyone here, BUT:

Quote

Does anybody know exactly what kind of action USPA takes against DZs who hire TIs without medicals? AND do they always know if a DZ has a TI who has no medical or does it take work on their part to find out?

This is the kind of question that attracts attention and I would ask why do you want to know this? Because this could be perceived as an attempt to thwart what is basically self policing requirements. "They" are not cops wanting to enforce anything and as such we all walk a tight line with the FAA and the public, and state and Local,...etc.....

Bottom line is if we can't "police" ourselves, there are agencies only all too willing to step in and charge us to "Protect" the public.

I suspect what you mean is there a way to increase the workload of the USPA Staff to make it more convenient for the members to not have to worry about multiple pieces of paper, especially in this day and age. That's a good point and you should bring it up with your local regional Rep. You would think with all of this computer stuff something like that would be easy enough to implement?
C

(sarcasm alert)>>>>> Perhaps even our photo's on our licenses?

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[ChrisD 0]

matthewcline

IIRC, the FAA Class III must be in your possession at all times when working under it. Just like any Pilot or crew member. So it can be inspected by the FAA Rep on the spot.

Matt

Here is the pertinent section from the FAR's:

"(c) Medical certificate. (1) A person may serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft only if that person holds the appropriate medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the FAA, that is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft. Paragraph (c)(2) of this section provides certain exceptions to the requirement to hold a medical certificate."

This is from 61.3

I don't think that TI's are required to have it in their possession. But some of the states are getting a little militant about some of the individual state requirements.
I'm not arguing with ya, just that being forewarned is forearmed in case something happens which IMO is the real issue and enforceable after the fact. A TI is not just like any crew or Pilot and I'm having a hard time believing that having a medical in or not in your possession or readily accessible is something that any LEO can enforce or even demand. Asking for it is another story...
C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[matthewcline 0]

In the few investigations I have been apart of, the LEO always accepted the Class III as in possession if it was on the DZ, i.e. in the log book, locker etc.

What a former aviation lawyer (For the GOV) told me one time, paraphrased; T-I's get certified by taking and passing a course, then maintaining their annual certifications as required by the manufacturer and USPA, part of qualifying is the Class III or better. I could make a charge stick if you didn't have one.

He would keep telling me to re-read and really study the FAR as it pertained to Tandems, KNOW what it says, he would say, again and again.

Good thing the guy was in our side, since there are apparently some not passing any form of medical certification and acting as T-I's.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[stratostar 5]

Quote

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.

(l) Inspection of certificate. Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:

(1) The Administrator;

(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;

(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or

(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[normiss 622]

Much less the lack of a manufacturer's support of a currency or renewal program.

All on the USPA.

[ChrisD 0]

I was just trying to point out the difference between who is actually required to have the piece of paper in their physical custody and or near in the actual aircraft and only aircrew are required to have it in their physical possession. There is a difference between having it in your pocket and as Dan is pointing out having it available for inspection. Or as is pointed out "must present it." Your concerns about Ti's running around without anything period are a major concern. As you point out "they " have it somewhere. And that is something that has been acceptable in the past. Again I was just quoting the specific regulation pertaining only to aircrew that explicitly specifies the actual physical location where the documents must be located. I agree wholeheartedly with what you are pointing out. But I hope this will continue for the vast majority of skydivers out there. The USPA being a member driven organization needs to be on the same page to support this as well as the same page as far as TI conduct.

If you read the new publications from the FAA, anyone can see how some of the phraseology has changed. They have clearly taken a stand and changed the language used as far as AAD's. The new rhetoric clearly states that Tandem rigs MUST be equipped with them. They are rewriting stuff that clearly points this out. They do not take the stand that the USPA does and more than a few Dz's that AAD's are something that is to be left up to the manufacturer and or "waiver able."

Other rhetoric is that they are pointing out the "increase in popularity of skydiving," "accepted bodies for regulations," and they have completely dropped the rhetoric about "self policing."

Combine this with the activity of AOPA demanding that the medical regulations be relaxed, which they did, for certain classes of aircraft, this in a sense dilutes the value of a Class Three medical. I use the term dilutes in the Government sense in that they are required to protect the public. All we need is for many of these personal TI's that feel they know better or to keep dropping little old ladies out of their harnesses to prove to the FAA that the USPA cannot do what they promise, that self policing isn't working, and they will be required to step in and enforce regulation upon anyone and everyone at a DZ to protect the public. And it's not going to be some kind of USPA Member DZ suspension as DJ points out. This is clearly a case similar in nature to any skydiving incident. A skydiver can get wacked anywhere on the globe and the whole world knows about it within hours. It's hot copy for the news. An innocent tandem "Student" gets whacked and trust me The FAA, and a pile of agencies that need to justify their existence are waiting in the wings.

Whether we like it or not the business nature of those individuals as compared with the club and volunteer nature of the history of skydiving has caught up with us. Many individuals for a multitude of reasons want to make money, it's a business now. We have in fact reaped what some have sown. So accept the fact that business have regulations that are going to be enforced!

The problem is we still have a culture that from the TI's perspective is something much akin to the wild west in that they, the TI's can come and go as they please, regulations smegulations, and I can do what I want. All any one has to do is visit these pages and view the many varying opinions, the wineing about having to have a medical in the first place, and the lack of a recurrancy testing and or mechanism to ensure a drug free work environment and to insure the continuing proficiency of any individual TI and you can start to see just how effective one drunk TI can really do some serious damage to everyone.

Every time someone argues the merits or the necessity of a medical they are making the FAA's argument for them. To our non-skydiving public, the FAA and the world for that matter this issue isn't something that is even debatable. Every time the subject comes up it's the same as thumbing your nose in their face.

This is the point that so many here are missing, you can't have your cake and eat it too....

Tandem Instructors, should have annual EKG's, Drug testing and not drink alcohol period. They should be physically fit and prove they can manhandle an average 180 lb person. If they can't annually prove their physical prowess their tickets should be revoked. And this is just a few minimum requirements...

How did ya like that?

Cause that's how they think! And every time anyone argues otherwise, they are just reinforcing the governments position that the USPA cannot police themselves.

C

Obviously with this one,... some will take offense to tone or a perceived lecture. I am just being brief and no offense is intended to anyone, nor am I singling out any one individual. If someone or anyone cares to re-write my comments in an effort to reduce the perceived patriarchal attitude or perceived anger, they are free to give me some welcome assistance on my writing style. thanks

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[matthewcline 0]

For the ost part, USPA, can't and won't police themselves, nor do the manufacturers.

Starts post I think is pretty clear.
Like you, I was just passing along info.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[ChrisD 0]

swoopfly

hey all,

Just curious, i have done some tandems for other dzs than my home dz. I know they need to check your credentials before ever letting you take a customer. But they also want to see your class 3 medical on the spot. The question i always think is, If you have your USPA card in date with the ratings, why would they need to verify your medical is in date? As you have to verify this with USPA before they will issue you the in date card displaying your ratings. Wouldnt USPA card showing your ratings validate your medical as you have to show this to USPA to renew anyway?

Hey could you clarify what your asking a little bit? I'm taken what your saying as having the USPA do more work, which is a fine idea BTW, but how can they do this? I mean how can they actually put this into practice?

I have always herd from some of the regional Directors that the membership wants the Class Three to be separate. The added cost, the additional responsibility, and the political concession was that then the USPA doesn't have to play policeman. It would be nice if that someone who was actually there could comment. Cause I also heard that the dz owners want it this way to protect their own interests because and again a volunteer membership driven organization can't and is unwilling to ensure the public safety? This was a compromise acceptable to all???

My point with bringing up the whole medical issue was to get responsible feedback on the current state of affairs, I think we have all seen the response of a few TI's here who have yet again reinforced their ego's at everyone's expense. And I'm sorry but it's a business now, it happened a few years ago, you have to be responsible. Government is good at enacting legislation and rules and regulation, once they have it I really have never seen them let it go.

Is self policing working?

Or do we need to see a more rigorous medical in place for TI's? Such as a class II? Why and why not, and do we need to be a little proactive in supporting the current class III and making a stronger effort to rid the sport of those places that would even discuss the merits of licenses? Cause I have to tell ya, another old lady incident and it will be out of everyone's hands. According to some of the notes in the Federal Register and the FAA's own rhetoric a NPRM is only one incident away.
This is my concern, either you can do some hand holding here or flame away or make some constructive comments that actually support skydiving. It's my opinion that on some of these issues the membership has been more reactive than proactive. And in my opinion we need to start focusing, much as AOPA does in actually protecting skydiving as compared to waiting for the next incident. Does this make sense? And if anyone has suggestions to help me express these ideas in less space or more eloquently so that the few don't want to lynch me because of my skin color, well I'm all ears.

Matt you don't need my condescending approval of anything you say, but I do think the point of doing everything we can, however some may view this as an intrusion upon their personal freedom, as you point out is a direction that everyone needs a reminder of. For that I thank you, and if that means having copies of our medicals on our person, required or not, that might be a good thing. I want the FAA and everyone else to be happy, as you put it we should all be striving to keep those guys on our side!

They, the FAA has a job to do, and I'm asking for suggestions on how to appease them for the continued benefit of skydiving. The stereotype of rogue TI's persists and I do believe we need some sort of plan to combat how we are being perceived. And on the other hand I am convinced they have something up their sleeves as far as the Class III is concerned. But perhaps I'm just being paranoid again???

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[ufk22 32]

"You are a small child, without a degree or any experience, so what you have to say isn't worth listening to."

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[ChrisD 0]

ufk22

"You are a small child, without a degree or any experience, so what you have to say isn't worth listening to."

From the guide:

The consequences of a negligent or wrongful certification, which would permit an unqualified person to take the controls of an aircraft, can be serious for the public, for the Government, and for the Examiner. If the examination is cursory and the Examiner fails to find a disqualifying defect that should have been discovered in the course of a thorough and careful examination, a safety hazard may be created and the Examiner may bear the responsibility for the results of such action.
Of equal concern is the situation in which an Examiner deliberately fails to report a disqualifying condition either observed in the course of the examination or otherwise known to exist. In this situation, both the applicant and the Examiner in completing the application and medical report form may be found to have committed a violation of Federal criminal law

Alcoholism and DUI's are required to be reported. I am truly sorry that a few feel that they can endanger skydiving by continuing to support loopholes and irresponsible conduct.

I am getting a lot of heat from a few individuals for speaking my mind, too you,...


Deal with it. Because this is why this forum exists.

I'm sorry that a few have resorted to flooding my other e-mail with spam and crap mail. To those that want to continue to have me act as a voice in bringing up difficult subjects and bear the wrath of a few, please use the PM feature here. But understand that skydiving is a small community with very vocal individuals that have no problem throwing you under the bus. I can not always guarantee your anonymity.

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[matthewcline 0]

Sad, I too have had the spammers attack my dz.com pm and email address, my fb page, my gmail, and even my phone.

All because I am trying to teach, educate, and just keep my fellow jumpers safe and alive, some from their own madd skillz.

Oddly, they tend to stay away from my army.mil account, I wonder why?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[ufk22 32]

ChrisD

*** "You are a small child, without a degree or any experience, so what you have to say isn't worth listening to."

From the guide:

The consequences of a negligent or wrongful certification, which would permit an unqualified person to take the controls of an aircraft, can be serious for the public, for the Government, and for the Examiner. If the examination is cursory and the Examiner fails to find a disqualifying defect that should have been discovered in the course of a thorough and careful examination, a safety hazard may be created and the Examiner may bear the responsibility for the results of such action.
Of equal concern is the situation in which an Examiner deliberately fails to report a disqualifying condition either observed in the course of the examination or otherwise known to exist. In this situation, both the applicant and the Examiner in completing the application and medical report form may be found to have committed a violation of Federal criminal law

Alcoholism and DUI's are required to be reported. I am truly sorry that a few feel that they can endanger skydiving by continuing to support loopholes and irresponsible conduct.

I am getting a lot of heat from a few individuals for speaking my mind, too you,...


Deal with it. Because this is why this forum exists.

I'm sorry that a few have resorted to flooding my other e-mail with spam and crap mail. To those that want to continue to have me act as a voice in bringing up difficult subjects and bear the wrath of a few, please use the PM feature here. But understand that skydiving is a small community with very vocal individuals that have no problem throwing you under the bus. I can not always guarantee your anonymity.you didn't recognize that this is a quote pulled from one of your wandering posts???
And no matter what, you still have done only one tandem and have lied many times about your "skydiving career. You are not qualified to comment on most things on this board

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[peek 20]

Below are links to aviation medical test standards. I offer them for study because of the posts I see from people suggesting that because tandem jumps are commercially oriented that tandem instructors perhaps should have FAA Class 2 medicals and not just Class 3, (because the Class 2 is "better").

The only thing that might be considered "better" about the Class 2 (for tandem instructors) is that it is required more often.

If you think about a pilot in the cockpit of an aircraft, you may find it easier to understand why the different classes have different requirements.

The Class 1 includes an EKG test, which arguably may make it "better" in some regards, but my purpose for making this post is for people to compare Class 2 and Class 3, and understand them.

The first is provided by an Aviation Medical Examiner on his web site, and is a very good summary of the differences among the 3 types of medical.

http://flightphysical.com/Exam-Guide/Synopsis.htm

The second is the related FAR's. (You would need to print out these standards and lay them side by side to interpret the differences.)

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=946fd17306d68d75f266219a2010a1de&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfr67_main_02.tpl

[Ron 7]

Quote

The consequences of a negligent or wrongful certification, which would permit an unqualified person to take the controls of an aircraft, can be serious for the public, for the Government, and for the Examiner.

And what are the dangers of an unqualified person giving advice?

Quote

I am truly sorry that a few feel that they can endanger skydiving by continuing to support loopholes and irresponsible conduct.

Like giving bad advice and acting like an expert when in fact you did a tandem jump as a student in Sept 2012?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChrisD 0]

ufk22

****** "You are a small child, without a degree or any experience, so what you have to say isn't worth listening to."

From the guide:

The consequences of a negligent or wrongful certification, which would permit an unqualified person to take the controls of an aircraft, can be serious for the public, for the Government, and for the Examiner. If the examination is cursory and the Examiner fails to find a disqualifying defect that should have been discovered in the course of a thorough and careful examination, a safety hazard may be created and the Examiner may bear the responsibility for the results of such action.
Of equal concern is the situation in which an Examiner deliberately fails to report a disqualifying condition either observed in the course of the examination or otherwise known to exist. In this situation, both the applicant and the Examiner in completing the application and medical report form may be found to have committed a violation of Federal criminal law

Alcoholism and DUI's are required to be reported. I am truly sorry that a few feel that they can endanger skydiving by continuing to support loopholes and irresponsible conduct.

I am getting a lot of heat from a few individuals for speaking my mind, too you,...


Deal with it. Because this is why this forum exists.

I'm sorry that a few have resorted to flooding my other e-mail with spam and crap mail. To those that want to continue to have me act as a voice in bringing up difficult subjects and bear the wrath of a few, please use the PM feature here. But understand that skydiving is a small community with very vocal individuals that have no problem throwing you under the bus. I can not always guarantee your anonymity.you didn't recognize that this is a quote pulled from one of your wandering posts???
And no matter what, you still have done only one tandem and have lied many times about your "skydiving career. You are not qualified to comment on most things on this board

If you want to prove I have lied to anyone, please justify your assumption with some real facts. I sleep well tonight because I haven't mislead anyone here. Other than much intentional tone and some outrageous sarcasm that I world hope is clearly visible.

You on the other hand would be worthy of the William Randolph Hurst award.
Your link that yo have posted is taken out of context and your reinforcing the fact that this public forum is a hostile place and your private domain. You have done nothing to help anyone. A small cadre of users continually drive off large numbers of well meaning individuals that use Dropzone.com for education and to have fun. I hope your proud of your self for actually spreading lies and innuendo. I would say something like I hope your man enough when your proved wrong, but in reality I expect little from you.

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[ufk22 32]

ChrisD

********* "You are a small child, without a degree or any experience, so what you have to say isn't worth listening to."

From the guide:

The consequences of a negligent or wrongful certification, which would permit an unqualified person to take the controls of an aircraft, can be serious for the public, for the Government, and for the Examiner. If the examination is cursory and the Examiner fails to find a disqualifying defect that should have been discovered in the course of a thorough and careful examination, a safety hazard may be created and the Examiner may bear the responsibility for the results of such action.
Of equal concern is the situation in which an Examiner deliberately fails to report a disqualifying condition either observed in the course of the examination or otherwise known to exist. In this situation, both the applicant and the Examiner in completing the application and medical report form may be found to have committed a violation of Federal criminal law

Alcoholism and DUI's are required to be reported. I am truly sorry that a few feel that they can endanger skydiving by continuing to support loopholes and irresponsible conduct.

I am getting a lot of heat from a few individuals for speaking my mind, too you,...


Deal with it. Because this is why this forum exists.

I'm sorry that a few have resorted to flooding my other e-mail with spam and crap mail. To those that want to continue to have me act as a voice in bringing up difficult subjects and bear the wrath of a few, please use the PM feature here. But understand that skydiving is a small community with very vocal individuals that have no problem throwing you under the bus. I can not always guarantee your anonymity.you didn't recognize that this is a quote pulled from one of your wandering posts???
And no matter what, you still have done only one tandem and have lied many times about your "skydiving career. You are not qualified to comment on most things on this board

If you want to prove I have lied to anyone, please justify your assumption with some real facts. I sleep well tonight because I haven't mislead anyone here. Other than much intentional tone and some outrageous sarcasm that I world hope is clearly visible.

You on the other hand would be worthy of the William Randolph Hurst award.
Your link that yo have posted is taken out of context and your reinforcing the fact that this public forum is a hostile place and your private domain. You have done nothing to help anyone. A small cadre of users continually drive off large numbers of well meaning individuals that use Dropzone.com for education and to have fun. I hope your proud of your self for actually spreading lies and innuendo. I would say something like I hope your man enough when your proved wrong, but in reality I expect little from you.

CI'm man enough that my name, unlike yours, is listed in my profile, as are my REAL jump numbers, time in sport, and instructional ratings. All you need to do to PROVE I'm the jerk you accuse me of being is identify yourself and where you jump. It's a small community and I know a lot of people.
I will apologize if I'm wrong, but it's not my job to prove a negative. Your advice has been mostly wrong, mostly dangerous, and almost entirely a lie on your part.
Please prove me wrong or go away.
If you were just a regular troll, I'd ignore you. When you start giving out advice that could injure or kill, I'll make it my job to challenge your every post.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[ChrisD 0]

All you do dude is to get yo yurself banned.

I am sorry you feel you have to do whatever it is your doing, but I don't have to do or prove anything to you. C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."