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agentsmith413

Occasional problem with instability

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Ok I'm a brand new tandem instructor. I have about 40 tandems so far. Every once in a while I get a student that I can't for the life of me get stable. Not often but just once in a while. I've watched videos of tandems I took up and I can't seem to figure out what I'm doing wrong. Now I know to take advice from the Internet with a grain of salt but I'm wondering if some of you can watch the video and see if you have some tips.

I've tried arching more. Relaxing more. And I can't seem to figure it out. When I did the course and my first 20 paying students were fine. I was stable and kept heading. But every once in a while I get one I can't seem to stabilize. I've had maybe 3 so far that were that way. So any advice would be appreciated.

Here's the video http://youtu.be/taWDS7cE1uI
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride!

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Too much arms and legs. Try keeping your arms on the side more instead of keeping them in front of you. At least that is what usually do to avoid that.

By the way, why was the exit edited out? In my opinion that is one the most exiting parts of the video for the passenger.
Your rights end where my feelings begin.

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shropshire

Random thought from non-tandem jumper... have all of the wobblers been light folks like this lass? Could weight be a factor?



I've spoken to some of the more experienced tandem instructors at my DZ and they say sometimes the smaller people can take you for a bit of a ride. For me personally the easiest people have been the average size people.

I will say it's definitely a learning experience but i love doing it.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride!

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Arvoitus


By the way, why was the exit edited out? In my opinion that is one the most exiting parts of the video for the passenger.



I honesly don't know. i was wondering the same thing myself when i watched the video.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride!

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fanya

Relax and quit trying to arch so hard.



I definitely think you're right. Once i start potato chipping i tend to want to arch more rather than just relax more.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride!

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After 10000+ tandems on Sigma/Strong/Vector/Eclipse, I have a bit of experience. Your arching isn't going to do much for you if your student isn't working with you. Its primarily a questiion of presentation to the relative wind and maintaining control (or luck of it) initially on exit and drogue throw. Your flying surface is your student, your arms and legs are simply surfaces that will give you directional control. Its better to leg lock to stop them flying the thing for you when your in drogue throw (providing its not progression training of course). Every exit, every plane, every student is different. Learn to get comfortable and calm and control your student and exit. Good luck, its a hell of a journey.

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agentsmith413

***Relax and quit trying to arch so hard.



I definitely think you're right. Once i start potato chipping i tend to want to arch more rather than just relax more.

Relax, drop your knees a little, don't be so stiff, all of this will dampen the potato chip wave you have going.

Sometimes I notice that students sit rearward more after setting the drogue and we are chipping a bit, if I reach around the sides and pull them forward slightly it puts a stop to it.

Sometimes I have the student fly out of stuff. If I have a student that has a leg dropped weird and is giving me a funny spin to a certain side I will do a 360 the opposite way flying with them by putting my arms over there arms, and it makes them stop the built in turn they have before.

If you have time get them on a creeper and have them practice a good arch a few times, then you don't have to outfly the student, the student will fly with you.

Once you get more jumps it will start being more subconscious like all your other non student jumps, all these things you had to think about correcting before will go away more and more, because your just going to fly out of them.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
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Is there a reason why you are sitting down at exit?? DZ policy????

I can never get a good solid launch from sitting position.

I only do em when there is that one ti that does em and I'm following him out and my student see what is happening and does the same thing at the door, by sitting down..
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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I agentsmith,

Having done close to 5000 tandems and beeing a Tandem I/E for a long time, i like to give you a couple of pointers that might help.
from what i saw on the video, your knees are down and you are slightly dearched. i also noticed that you are doing a bit of kicking yourself,you can see your knees bending and straighting most of the time and your feet are not pointed.,as we tell all of our AFF students keep positve pressure on the legs.you also seem to be doing trying to hard to fix the problem, arching and relaxing will fix this issue for you. it is quiet common for tandem master who just got there ratings to have this issue.
another thing i noticed that the passenger legs came outside yours at one stage.if you noticed that try to grab her legs with your own and tuck them up where they are supposed to be if you can, and then just fly your own body.
in my opinion it should not matter what the passenger does, as long as you fly your body correct, arched and relaxed it will stop this rocking or patato chipping as it is sometimes called.
I have had people go really into a Fetal position a few times, i still managed to fly the tandem as normal.
as for size of the passenger,generally the heavier the easier they are. for me, being 6'5tall, small light passengers are definitly the most trickiest tandems for me. i remember once i had a nice small passanger about 5'tall and about 100 lbs, i mean i towered over here, i do my normal exit, out and present to the RW upon exit, like i do with every exit, went for the drogue maybe 2 sec after i left, and bamm, spend the next 15-20 seconds trying to get stable and out of a side spin!:S:S>:(
she had dropped her knees right down which put me on my side and spun up. that was real fun,NOT.
also did something happen on the exit? why was that edited out? so i cannot see how you presented after you left.

so bottom line relax and arch and you have a lot more fun.

thats my 2 cents worth

Rodger

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You should expect to be "taken on a ride" at least once a year. It's gonna happen. As for your general stability in that jump, you just need to relax. Don't be afraid to build up speed before you set the drogue if the top end gets funky. With speed comes increased control. Anyway, welcome to tandem jumping. I still get great personal satisfaction throwing drogues.

Chuck, D-12501
UPT/Racer/Eclipse TM-I (among other things)

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stayhigh

Is there a reason why you are sitting down at exit?? DZ policy????

I can never get a good solid launch from sitting position.

I only do em when there is that one ti that does em and I'm following him out and my student see what is happening and does the same thing at the door, by sitting down..



No benches in that plane so it's really hard to stand up with the student. some of the instructors can do it but i find it easier to just doing sitting in the doorway. In our own otter we have benches so we can exit standing up.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride!

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Hey everyone, thanks for the advice. I truly am having a blast doing tandems and am learning a lot in the process. I will definitely consider the advice here and give some of it a try.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride!

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Instructors getting their ratings while meeting bare minimal requirements is what I see all around. I have 500 jumps, I'll be a TI; I have 6 hours of free fall, I'll be an AFFI. I have 200 jumps, I'll wear a WS. It seems too many want to an Instructor as soon as possible rather than be the best possible Instructor.

I only have 1800 tandems and been taken for 1 "ride" (except my 'hell' dive) I relax, arch and outfly the student. Why fly with knees dropped and hands low as I see all around. :S

Good luck.


steveOrino

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this is what i say to all of potential tandem masters. the easiest thing about tandems is getting your tandem rating. you know whats going to happen,but once finished the training and taking live passangers, thats when the real fun begins.
and fair play for posting this and putting the video up, shows your still eager to learn! you never stop learning when doing tandems.

blue skies and safe jumping.

Rodger

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steveorino

Instructors getting their ratings while meeting bare minimal requirements is what I see all around. I have 500 jumps, I'll be a TI; I have 6 hours of free fall, I'll be an AFFI. I have 200 jumps, I'll wear a WS. It seems too many want to an Instructor as soon as possible rather than be the best possible Instructor.

I only have 1800 tandems and been taken for 1 "ride" (except my 'hell' dive) I relax, arch and outfly the student. Why fly with knees dropped and hands low as I see all around. :S

Good luck.



Not really sure what you are getting at here Steve.

I didn't run to get my tandem rating at 500 jumps but I didn't wait until 1500 or 2000 jumper either. I think your out of line if you're implying that that someone doesn't have the goal of being the best instructor possible simply because they got started around the minimums.

There are jumpers with 1k's of jumps that shouldn't be tandem instructors, there are jumpers with 500 jumps that aren't ready to be tandem instructors, and there are more than a few tandem instructors with 1k's of tandems that probably shouldn't be tandem instructors any more.

Regarding the body position, every jump is different that is one of the reason why I think tandems are so amusing and challenging. Sure 99.9% of the time a big arch and with arms and legs wide is the combination that works for me. But there are also other jumps where some other combination of input gives a better result once your under the drogue. Your student is a big dynamic flying surface, why wouldn't you want more than one tool in your tool box so you can be dynamic too?

We all get taken for a ride where we don't get the instant correction we are looking for... even if it isn't THE RIDE. I have only been taken for one real ride, side spin with a 100 pound skinny mini my first season, but at 5'6 I certainly have to out-fly and out-think my students.

I seem to recall a recent post from you about getting a bad drogue toss and entanglement because of a student that was doing what they do best. I don't think that is a reflection of your merit of an instructor, but it is a fine example that shit happens on tandems, even when you have the *right* size to your advantage and 3000 jumps under your belt!
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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Quote

Not really sure what you are getting at here Steve.



Just ranting I guess ...

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I think your out of line if you're implying that that someone doesn't have the goal of being the best instructor possible simply because they got started around the minimums.



Having the goal and the ability are two different things. I went into Special Forces in 1977 straight from the block (similar to today's 18X program) I quickly saw while I passed the course when most didn't I was a far cry from the SF soldier who 'paid his dues'. I see the same thing. We have 3 guys going for their TI this fall. One has 1000 jumps and lots of coach and IAD time. While he is a slight fellow I believe he will do okay. Another is a guy who made quite a stir on this forum. He is 200# pounds and jumping a Velo with 200 something jumps. He spent most of last year recovering from breaking his body. He still jumps the Velo. But now he has 500 jumps and soon will be a TI most likely. I like the kid personally, but geessus, shouldn't we expect more maturity from Instructors. the third guy probably will do fine with the minimum. But the last kid I saw getting his TI with the minimum jumped out of a plane still seat-belted in -- hanging from the plane til the seat belt broke.



Quote

Regarding the body position, every jump is different that is one of the reason why I think tandems are so amusing and challenging. Sure 99.9% of the time a big arch and with arms and legs wide is the combination that works for me. But there are also other jumps where some other combination of input gives a better result once your under the drogue. Your student is a big dynamic flying surface, why wouldn't you want more than one tool in your tool box so you can be dynamic too?



I won't disagree as I leg-wraped one student out of 1800. But the best advice I ever received was from a Golden Knight who said quit flying the student and fly your body when he saw I was having similar issues as this poster.

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I seem to recall a recent post from you about getting a bad drogue toss and entanglement because of a student that was doing what they do best. I don't think that is a reflection of your merit of an instructor, but it is a fine example that shit happens on tandems, even when you have the *right* size to your advantage and 3000 jumps under your belt!



Yep, I said I had one "hell ride" that was it.

steveOrino

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Not totally relevant to your potato chipping, but pay particular attention to getting the side attachment straps tight when with smaller passengers. The students leg gets outside of yours after exit for a few seconds, then put them between yours after. The side straps looked good on this one, but the smaller/lighter passengers are the ones I think are the harder ones to fly in my experience.

Definitely relax as others have said, chipping gets worse the harder you try to stop it. Thanks for putting it all out there for the critique, shows you do really care and want to learn. Be safe!
We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

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Try this sometime. When you hook up the laterals, also snug up the back diagonals. This will bring the student a little higher up toward your head and chest and will make your center of gravity more directly below the drogue. It also brings them up a little higher under canopy and they don't have to get their legs up as high.

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Jim, aren't the diagonals already snugged up on your students before the get on the plane? I rarely touch the mlw or diagonals after boarding, they were adjusted to spec already.

Are you saying on an already adjusted harness you snug the laterals tight, then reach between you and the student to pull up on the diaganols to cinch them even further?
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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Interesting, do you think that you might be locking them in a more de-arched position by shortening the main lift web while they are leaned forward and hunched over?

I know you are adjusting from the back, instead of the front MLW, but you effectively have a circle of harness that goes down the front and up the back, so at some level of adjustment more diagonal adjustment is preferable to cranking more MLW adjustment, but when the circle get small enough they are constricted either way.

I think you are accomplishing a similar thing as when I reach under and pull them forward, only I am shifting them relative to the laterals by changing the angle of the laterals between their harness and my harness rings, and you are shifting them by moving the point where the laterals are sitting on them.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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