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Toddnkaya1

Landing on butt

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It depends on...

the weather.
the student.
the gear.
the instructor.
the jump.
the field.

Most of my tandem landings are "on our butt" but we land on my feet first. My feet are out, but not up, so I slide on my feet and absorb any force, if there was any to begin with.

On days that there isn't turbulence and sink my experience is that you can give tandems gentle sliding landings jump after jump. There isn't any impact with a nicely timed full flare.

On other days depending on weather conditions you sometimes experience minor turbulence and sink, and you can have a landing that is a little harder.

I personally think a sliding landing is safer in low wind conditions. We have a gentle sliding landing, versus trying to coordinate two sets of legs and running the risk of tripping and falling.

In comparison I have witnessed a rather large TI, who was 6 foot plus 200 pounds plus who didn't like to slide out landings. He would yell at students to stand up and run. He mowed down a number of pretty little 100 pound nothing girls on stand up landings gone awry!

Your instructor try the best that he or she can to give you the best landing possible.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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The tandem equipment Manufacturers recommend butt landings. When considering all of the maybes as Doug mentioned, the butt landing has the fewest chances to go sideways. But as you learned, it ain't perfect.
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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Thanks for your detailed response Doug!
Ours was a smoothe and pretty soft landing.
I did not feel any pain until the next day. The small jolt to this area seems to compressed my lower back a bit.
I was thinking if they made any type of pad to soften the blow to the ass thus reducing the pressure put on the lower back.?

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That's ok, one tailbone strike on a small stone, a TI will be caught up in a law suit by the crippled tandem passenger who does his/her homework and learns that they could have stood it up, and the TI will see the light the the good lord gave us landing gear (our legs/feet) for a reason!
It pisses me off when I go to a dz and see the TI's with the asses busted out of their jump suits and the leg strap covers/padding worn away or starting to wear away. The quality of the tandem as we knew it has really gone to shit over the last few years.

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That's ok, one tailbone strike on a small stone, a TI will be caught up in a law suit by the crippled tandem passenger who does his/her homework and learns that they could have stood it up, and the TI will see the light the the good lord gave us landing gear (our legs/feet) for a reason!
It pisses me off when I go to a dz and see the TI's with the asses busted out of their jump suits and the leg strap covers/padding worn away or starting to wear away. The quality of the tandem as we knew it has really gone to shit over the last few years.



So you stand up every landing? If conditions permit I do, if conditions don't I don't. Whatever I feel is safer for the student, and thats the way it should be.
We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

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alabamaskydiver


It pisses me off when I go to a dz and see the TI's with the asses busted out of their jump suits and the leg strap covers/padding worn away or starting to wear away. The quality of the tandem as we knew it has really gone to shit over the last few years.



That is funny...

I don't have a worn out jumpsuit ass, or worn out tandem gear, and we slide out 90%+ of our landings.

I don't ride the tandems ass, I surf my legs and my feet, the student sits back on ME as I lay back. I am using my landing gear that the good lord gave me, in combination with the good training my examiner gave me. The tandem is keeping their landing gear in the safest position possible.

You must be right, the TI I described above looked way less shitty when he was surfing his tandem students face first into the grass, because he forced them to run out a landing and the student tripped and stumbled, instead of doing a nicely executed slide.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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I asked my TI if we would be sliding in (that's what I had seen in videos of tandems) and he said the plan was to land standing. He had me keep my legs up and out of the way until we were on the ground, and we stood up fine. Didn't have the knowledge base to know if it was weather conditions, his preference, our respective sizes, or what the criteria in that decision were...but it worked really well (and more gracefully than my two PLFs so far in AFF...but I'm proud of no injuries or bruises as I roll my way through those landings...) Some day I'll stand it up...when everything is in place!!

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Where sliding landings are used, what I don't like is when tandem instructors want their students' legs "all the way up", level with the horizon -- although maybe that works just fine at some DZs with certain weather conditions.

But I'm used to a DZ with ups & downs in the landing area, and sometimes some turbulence. So I want a student's legs both forward and down, so that if we drop in a bit hard, the student's feet will hit the ground first -- not their spine. A student can have their upper legs horizontal, and lower legs at a 45 degree angle.

As an instructor I'll try to take the hit first if we come in with some vertical velocity, but I can't take all of the impact force and want the student to contribute to their own health & safety.

Usually the slide in landing is smooth, but one should be prepared for imperfect landings.

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pchapman

Where sliding landings are used, what I don't like is when tandem instructors want their students' legs "all the way up", level with the horizon -- although maybe that works just fine at some DZs with certain weather conditions.



This makes sense. In general I find most students, except for the most fit, end up in this 45* leg position by default, because they don't have great core fitness.

On my younger fitter students I should probably mention that they should lift their legs up, but less than a leg lift. These individuals can sometimes lift their legs horizontal or more, and if they are sitting low in the harness their butt can possible hit before their legs, but I still focus on getting my legs on the ground first, and their butt and legs over mine.

Either way I tell them not to reach for the ground. I need to think of what wording will be the easiest to properly convey the point that they need to get their knees up and feet out, but not straight out.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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DougH

I need to think of what wording will be the easiest to properly convey the point that they need to get their knees up and feet out, but not straight out.



How about demonstrate the position to them on the ground and then have them practice on the ground and up high under canopy prior to landing?


Blue Skies

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bill6870

*** I need to think of what wording will be the easiest to properly convey the point that they need to get their knees up and feet out, but not straight out.



How about demonstrate the position to them on the ground and then have them practice on the ground and up high under canopy prior to landing?

I try to limit the discussion of the landing on the ground, and unless I have have an indication that they will have a physical problem getting their legs up, or they have a disability that will make instruction after opening impossible (had a few students who were deaf), I don't have them practice on the ground.

I don't want to have them trying to remember two different body mechanics while they are in free fall when they only need to be arching. I do have them get on a creeper and arch, and practice body flight, so I don't think this is a case of me trying to limit the ground training.

After opening there is plenty of time for me to discuss the landing and get them to practice. I would rather have a student that is still trying to arch after opening for the few minutes before I go into my canopy flight and landing discussion than the opposite, the student that tries to lift his legs through most of the freefall. :ph34r:B|

That being said older, or out of shape, both have to practice lifting their legs up on the ground so I know what type of performance to expect, and so I can plan accordingly!
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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alabamaskydiver

That's ok, one tailbone strike on a small stone, a TI will be caught up in a law suit by the crippled tandem passenger who does his/her homework and learns that they could have stood it up, and the TI will see the light the the good lord gave us landing gear (our legs/feet) for a reason!
It pisses me off when I go to a dz and see the TI's with the asses busted out of their jump suits and the leg strap covers/padding worn away or starting to wear away. The quality of the tandem as we knew it has really gone to shit over the last few years.



Sorry but I have to say that's a pretty ridiculous claim. Two brains and four legs don't often work well together. Especially when taking people that aren't even remotely athletic or when taking an older passenger. I slide every tandem in on their asses and it's always very soft. I respect that you may have a different personal preference but to go as far as to say that it's the "wrong way" is just you being an ass. If this person that created the post implied that it was a "soft" landing then they wouldn't be suffering from the pain that they are talking about. Not to mention that it could be related to a variety of other factors including aircraft hookup/exit (depending on the type of aircraft), pre existing medical conditions, and the parachute opening.

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SEREJumper

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That's ok, one tailbone strike on a small stone, a TI will be caught up in a law suit by the crippled tandem passenger who does his/her homework and learns that they could have stood it up, and the TI will see the light the the good lord gave us landing gear (our legs/feet) for a reason!
It pisses me off when I go to a dz and see the TI's with the asses busted out of their jump suits and the leg strap covers/padding worn away or starting to wear away. The quality of the tandem as we knew it has really gone to shit over the last few years.



So you stand up every landing? If conditions permit I do, if conditions don't I don't. Whatever I feel is safer for the student, and thats the way it should be.



Yep, as many as I can. I can't say I'm 100% on the stand ups, but I make every effort to stand them up, and usually don't have a problem.

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That's ok, one tailbone strike on a small stone, a TI will be caught up in a law suit by the crippled tandem passenger who does his/her homework and learns that they could have stood it up, and the TI will see the light the the good lord gave us landing gear (our legs/feet) for a reason!
It pisses me off when I go to a dz and see the TI's with the asses busted out of their jump suits and the leg strap covers/padding worn away or starting to wear away. The quality of the tandem as we knew it has really gone to shit over the last few years.



So your basically saying that you are pissed off about the instructors jump suits being in ill repair and the lack of adequate gear maintenance on tandem harness leg straps causing a potential safety hazard if the leg strap webbing were to be compromised.

I agree with you about the gear maintenance issue, as for the TI's pants, thats a personal preference, although it may look more professional if he were to patch it up, but I don't think that affects safety for the student.
We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

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SEREJumper

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That's ok, one tailbone strike on a small stone, a TI will be caught up in a law suit by the crippled tandem passenger who does his/her homework and learns that they could have stood it up, and the TI will see the light the the good lord gave us landing gear (our legs/feet) for a reason!
It pisses me off when I go to a dz and see the TI's with the asses busted out of their jump suits and the leg strap covers/padding worn away or starting to wear away. The quality of the tandem as we knew it has really gone to shit over the last few years.



So your basically saying that you are pissed off about the instructors jump suits being in ill repair and the lack of adequate gear maintenance on tandem harness leg straps causing a potential safety hazard if the leg strap webbing were to be compromised.

I agree with you about the gear maintenance issue, as for the TI's pants, thats a personal preference, although it may look more professional if he were to patch it up, but I don't think that affects safety for the student.


It's not like I'm so pissed that I will make a big scene about it, but the worn equipment and busted out asses gives a very unprofessional image of a sport that already has black eyes from the online scams being perpetrated on it and USPA's lack of ability to police or control it. (the scams)
It's kinda like showing up at a car detail shop expecting the most awesome cleaning and detail job, and the owner pulls up in a ragged out, dirty old POS of a jalopy. If I get a hole, or rip, etc, I fix it before I return to the DZ.
I guess I'm saying, just take a little pride in your stuff, people do gauge their impression of our sport on what they see, and not just the great skydive they got.

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I don't want to have them trying to remember two different body mechanics while they are in free fall when they only need to be arching. I do have them get on a creeper and arch, and practice body flight, so I don't think this is a case of me trying to limit the ground training.



Give your punters credit for having some intelligence.

Why would they even be thinking about the landing during the FF phase?. There is a complete disconnect between the two phases, which is quite an easy concept to grasp.

What is difficult about simply adding during your briefing that on landing you would like them to position their legs as if the were sitting in a chair, and you will remind them and practise that high up under canopy. Very simple.

Don't overcomplicate things and there is much less for them to misunderstand.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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I guess I'm saying, just take a little pride in your stuff, people do gauge their impression of our sport on what they see, and not just the great skydive they got.



Can't argue with that and I totally agree.
We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

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Why would they even be thinking about the landing during the FF phase?. There is a complete disconnect between the two phases, which is quite an easy concept to grasp.


IMHO 2 seconds out of the door for some passengers there's no such thing as an easy concept to grasp. B|:P;)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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Which is why I have decided to focus on telling them about the aircraft emergency procedures, hookup, exit, and free fall...

I am using a less is more concept, because I can give me more later on in the jump.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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I was thinking if they made any type of pad to soften the blow to the ass thus reducing the pressure put on the lower back.?


Usually, when a complete noob walks into a group of trained professionals with his so called 'fresh perspective on things' the standard 99,9% right answer to his suggestion (any suggestion) is 'we thought about that so long ago that we actually can't remember why this wasn't such a good idea'. Like when someone walked in here with the 'smart' idea that skydiving planes should stay at altitude till the last skydiver had landed after the news of a freak 'cat and mouse game' accident with a highly experienced cameraflyer and a highly experienced twin-otter pilot.

However, padding on the 'landing area' back part of tandem-passengers jumpsuits or built / retrofit into the passengers harness is actually an excellent idea.

It would be better of course to not jump too heavy passengers in no wind or turbulent conditions but in the balancing act between safety and commercial pressure we know what happens every now and then.

So anybody out there running a tandem operation who is about to replace the passenger jumpsuits ought to give this some thought like 'one / a few passenger(s) per year complaining about lower back injuries or even worse - letters from their insurance lawyer, versus only happy customers that had a 100% blast and send all their friends....'

Just my $0,02

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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People think that it is hard to run with students legs being off the ground but canopy will carry most of the weight.
I would take couple steps myself and tell the student to put the feet on the ground.

I try to land 100% on my feet with or without wind, student weighing under 249 lbs.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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I stand up the great majority of my tandem landings, but there are times when that's just not an option. I tell my students that I will not know until the last possible second whether I'm going to ask them to slide or if I'm going to tell them to stand up. Often it's sort of a combination: swoop/slide on my feet for a bit then walk it off. Either way, I have them pick their feet up and in front of them "like barefoot waterskiing" and tell them that it's important that my feet touch the ground before theirs.

Chuck

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