Hooking up for take off. Good idea? Bad idea?

[DougH 270]

SkymonkeyONE

How is unhooking oneself from your TM more difficult than undoing a seatbelt?

Are you pulling my leg?

A hooker style seat belt on a student harness can be placed on the main lift web where the student can easily see it, and manipulate it. Most of these seat belts are familiar operation to the student, lift up the release and pull, just like a regular airplane belt, but one sided.

My laterals attach on the lateral rings on my container far behind the student where they can't see them, and they use quick ejector hardware which is unfamiliar to many students. If the upper connectors are on that is even more unfamiliar for the student, and would require lots of work to release, IMHO.

Do you really think that a student that is connected to their tandem instructor could quickly free themselves from upper connectors, and lower connectors, if that instructor was belted in and incapacitated?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

When did we start talking about upper connections? I loosely connect the LOWER connectors for takeoff (on straddle-bench aircraft). And, yes, I show my students how they operate.

[DougH 270]

SkymonkeyONE

When did we start talking about upper connections? I loosely connect the LOWER connectors for takeoff (on straddle-bench aircraft). And, yes, I show my students how they operate.

Your right, my mistake!

Are they wearing their own seat belts as well? If you are belted in only, and the belt holds both your weight, then the student has a lot of leash to flop around! Didn't we get the push for seat belts after the Perris crash because people died that would have otherwise survived from the crush of everyone moving around the the wreck?

I get a lot of the points you make Chuck, and I obviously defer to your experience, especially considering I don't ANY of my tandems out of turbines with straddle benches.

How much time do you think you would gain in an emergency exit if you only had to cinch down the lowers, versus having to connect lowers, cinch them down, and connect uppers?

I am sure it is faster, but I am thinking you can quickly get it done either way since the student is already close to you. Pull them close, hook the lowers, get the uppers, tighten the lowers as you slide down the bench to the door?

Either way seems like lightening in my mind compared to an emergency hookup in a 182!

Which is easier to release when we are all a broken mess on the floor? I still say a seat belt. If you were on your side you would trap one of the quick ejectors that they need to get to.

I appreciate your info!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Tetrahedron 13]

Most people have never seen those kinds of connectors and in a smoke-filled cabin, having to find and unfasten two of them can eat up valuable time.

I've never seen those kinds of connectors anywhere, except tandem skydiving gear.

Even if you explain to them how they work, the crash could cause them to not remember any of it.

They do know how ordinary seatbelt buckles work.

[toolbox 0]

Exactly

[Di0 1]

SkymonkeyONE

How is unhooking oneself from your TM more difficult than undoing a seatbelt?

Airplane seatbelt buckles are, nowadays, common use items to most people, since they aren't much different from what is used on commercial airlines. It is safe to assume that most people know how to open and close those seatbelts, if they ever took an airplane in their lives.

A tandem harness?
Not so much, I honestly wouldn't even know where to start and.... well, if I'm relaxed I could probably figure it out quite soon, but under panic during an emergency? Mmmhh, I'd rather have to deal with the familiar one action quick-release system of the classic airplane seatbelt that is used all over the world.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[lekstrom10k 0]

If the plane doesn't have seat belts you cant jump it. FAA says so or by-by pilots ticket. FAA has also approved the seat belt for each person strength wise. Some one that lost his job shagging shopping carts for Walmarts because it was to confusing and is now a TI That person doesn't have the right to over ride that and say "Your attached to me and I am to the plane" Seat belts would then have to be out of 10000 lbs strength webbing and $150. Save your pilot do what the regs say.

[Greig474 0]

from reading all the previous post my feelin is that it is best for the TM and student to each have their own seat belts and not be connected up to each other at all, then when the plane reaches a safe exit altitude, the seatbelts should be undone and student should be fully connected to TM (incase of emergency), or at least connected at hips with laterals tight (Top hooks are easy to hook on in a second, having laterals hooked up and tightened takes longer). I have however heard that British Parachute Association rules say you must be fully attached (as if ready to jump) from take off and also be wearing seatbelts. i could be wrong. As for students unhooking themselves from TM, i have little faith the average student can do this quickly

[Greig474 0]

also if tandems are going to different heights than other jumpers (e.g tandem to 14000, solo jumper to 4000) its best to be fully hooked up and ready to jump (as far as i can think) in case lower exiting jumper has premature in door and gets hooked up on tail etc. If i'm missing something please enlighten me.

[normiss 620]

How many tandems have you made as the TI?

[ChrisD 0]

baronn

I see this all the time and Totally agree here. Just makes sense. My pilot isn't sure and neither ami on what is actually required by the FAA. 2 separate seat belts or can 1 be used for both? I have been using just one myself and don't want to be in violation of anything that might put the pilot in jeopardy. Anyone have a clear answer here?

The new advisory circular has some suggestions regarding the use of two belts.

It clearly states that single point systems are not recommended. But not recommended is not the same as "required."

To me that's how the FAA makes suggestions,.... and then they wait,...

So what do you think they think when they see a single point system and then that individual with a single point system attaching some one else to themselves? In a sudden stop, I wouldn't want to be near anyone doing this. And the fact that the single point systems are only rated for one person; NOT two! Also keep in mind the award that was just reaffirmed in Miss of about 52.5 million that the insurance companies are going to be stuck collecting and you can see that the practice of attaching someone else to someone else is just plain wrong.

C

See attached: AC 105-2E, A94_16_19 and this link: See top of list 6-2247 For those that don't want to use the clicky: "lack of use..of an approved restraint system..."

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[normiss 620]

Oh sweet baby jebus.

[Greig474 0]

a few, why?

[stayhigh 2]

I dont wanna be attached to knocked out student and also I'm pretty sure my student don't wanna be attached to me when I'm knocked out.

They don't even know how to get out of harness properly, they won't figure out how to release side and the top connector.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[DougH 270]

I don't think most could either, even under calm static conditions. Then you can add in:
-You may be in a slumped over them, or you both may be turned on your side.
-Side or straddle benches may have collapsed or shifted resulting in harder access
-There may be wreckage or other passengers blocking access to both connectors
-There may be fire or smoke
-There may be water rushing in to the airplane
-There may be other panicked passengers trying to get over or past them
-They may be panicked

I can think of a number of reasons, beyond the fact that the seat belts aren't rated for two people, why I wouldn't want to count on myself or my student being able to get to the side connectors!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Greig474 0]

we were on the ground for 20 minutes at the plane on a weather hold 2 days ago. As i had just been reading this thread the night before i decided to see if my customer could undo the side connectors when we were hooked up sitting in the plane. I showed him how they unhook then i connected him to me at side connectors only while we were sitting in the plane. He took well over a minute to get free, and that was in an airplane that was not on fire, no distractions etc. Maybe he was an exception but i doubt it.

[normiss 620]

It's real easy to cut straps when your TI is dead though.

[stratostar 5]

Not really the student that rode down with a dead TI had a fair amount of a struggle to get free of the dead guy after landing out in a field off the airport... he was able to get out of the harness and walk to a house for help.

And most hook knifes are on the pax back, and would be one, hard to reach and two, most don't know it is there. A guy took 30 mins or so to get free on the ground and not in an airplane crash.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[nrobinson 0]

Greig474

I have however heard that British Parachute Association rules say you must be fully attached (as if ready to jump) from take off and also be wearing seatbelts. i could be wrong.

All four hooks connected at take off, and restraints too. I personally take the slack out of the laterals for take off, then tighten them fully shortly before exit.

[normiss 620]

Restraints? Seat belts or safety belts?

I connect the student to the seat belt, then myself to my seat belt, then the laterals get connected and left slack.
Seat belts off at 100ft, laterals left connected for the ride up.
Near the door? at least one upper connected.
Door opens for H&P - uppers and lowers.

Full re-check, hook-up of all points, re-check starts around 10k, depending on the ride.

[TheCaptain 2]

Below emergency exit altitude, I personally can not think of any reason to connect the student to me. In fact I can think of a lot of reason that it would be very unsafe to do so. I seat belt the student to the plane through their leg strap then explain to them where the seat belt is located in case of emergency. At 1500 AGL I disconnect the seat belts then attach the lower laterials and tighten them down. I leave the upper off till 9000 AGL (we exit at 13000 AGL normally).

Kirk
He's dead Jim