0
rustywardlow

Hooking up for take off. Good idea? Bad idea?

Recommended Posts

Recently I have seen a lot of TI's hook up the lowers then tell their students " I'm hooked to the plane and you're hooked to me." I even overheard a course director instruct his new TI's to hook up the lowers after boarding so that the student "couldn't get away from them". I find this practice very dangerous, complacent, and down right wrong for two reasons. First, it does not meet FAR part 91 seat belt requirements. Second (and this is the part I find most complacent) if the plane crashes on take off and you as the TI are killed or knock unconscious and your tandem student survives how the hell are they going to get out of that plane if they are connected to a TI. You just killed that student. This is if the plane starts to burn or worse.
Well I know this will stir up a lot of discussion. And don't mind me I've only been at it for 32 years and have over 2000 tandems. My views are set on this one. Inform your student on how their seat belt works. Where it is located. Where all of the exits are. And where to go after exiting the damaged craft. SOP.
O.K. guys have at it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with you. I teach my candidates to make sure each person has their own seatbelt (FAR requirement) and if you were hooked up to the student in event of accident how are they going to get away from you if you are unconscious. A lt of students can't figure out how to undo their chest strap after an exciting jump, how will they deal with quick ejectors. Hell a lot of candidates take a few to figure out the quick ejectors.

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Last refresher I had we were told the FAA requires the student be strapped to the aircraft or the instructor for the entire ride to altitude.
Seat belt to 1000 ft, lowers attached after that.
Uppers attached if near the door and people are exiting or door is open for ventilation.

In the event of a crash, those lowers are not difficult to detach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree, to me it is optimal if the student has a seatbelt but it not hooked up for takeoff. It is very difficult to detach lowers when the student is pulling away from you in an emergency situation. This might not even be a crash, for me it was an engine fire on the ground.

That being said, if you are unlucky enough to have to jump a narrow 182 hooking up the lowers when boarding is pretty much unavoidable.
Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
normiss

Last refresher I had we were told the FAA requires the student be strapped to the aircraft or the instructor for the entire ride to altitude.
Seat belt to 1000 ft, lowers attached after that.
Uppers attached if near the door and people are exiting or door is open for ventilation.



The FAA requires a restraint for each person. That means a restraint other than being attached to a tandem instructor.

The FAA requires passengers to wear seatbelts for taxi, take-off, and landing in the aircraft. Common practice is to consider the first 1000 (or 1500 or 2000, it varies) feet as "take-off" requiring seatbelts, and the remaining part of the ascent as "climb" when seatbelts are not required unless the PIC requires.

There is no FAA regulation that speaks to when a tandem passenger must be hooked up to the tandem instructor.

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you missed the part of instruction where we explain that to the student.
:D

I have played student, many times.
I actually think ALL TI's should ride front once in awhile.
I can reach everything I need to to take control and save my life.

We should all teach students that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I can reach everything I need to to take control and save my life.

We should all teach students that.



Personally I tell them never touch anything except their harness at chest level... do you really want to introduce the idea that they should grab onto stuff they don't really understand in preparation for such an unlikely scenario?
Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Yes, but the question is can your tandem student detach them if they are hooked to you



Can a student unhook a seatbelt that is hooked behind them?

I don't hook them to me for take off... But claiming they can't unhook themselves but can unhook themselves from a seatbelt is a bit silly considering some of the places I have seen them seatbelted in at.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IMHO part of the boarding instruction should involve showing them their seat belt, hooking it to the MLW on the tandem harness where they can get to it, and instructing them on how they open and remove it in case of an emergency.

It takes all of 10 seconds "This is your seat belt, we wear that until we are at an altitude that we can hook up and jump in the case of an emergency, you remove it like this *click click*"
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Since I've also done a tandem or two I'll throw in my two cents: First and foremost, everyone has their own seat belts. I run the loose end through the students harness, make them aware of it and SHOW them how to unbuckle it. I also tell them that I'm wearing the same type of seat belt and ask them if they'll please take me with them if I can't escape myself ( I smile and make light, but I'm serious), and I will do the same for them.

As far as briefing students about handles (this is for you Mark)? I avoid it if I can and my reasoning is this: Firstly, less is more. I find if I don't hammer the students with a 20 minute dissertation on the nuances of skydiving they tend to be more relaxed and do much better. I make them aware that skydiving is dangerous and then move on. The reality is that a student pulling on handles that they don't understand scares me far more than a whole lot of other scenarios I can think of.

Examples:

1)I brief my student (as I've heard some people do) that if we're not having a conversation by 4,000 to pull the ripcord. I'm unconscious under my drogue. What are the odds that a student recognizes that there is a problem and pulls the ripcord at an appropriate altitude? Slim. A more likely scenario is the he either doesn't recognize there's a problem in which case my Cypres fires or he recognizes there's a problem well beyond 4,000 feet (or at reserve fire) pulls the ripcord and we now have two out and an unconscious pilot.

2) I'm unconscious under no drogue. Student pulls the ripcord, making no difference whatsoever.

3) I'm having some other issue at pull time. Student recognizes his altitude and tries to "help". I now have a squirming, scared student clawing at my gear. No thanks.

I typically train students that they should be able to see their hands when they're in the "box" position, which is the position they should be in from exit (or "tap" on the shoulders) until the canopy is open and I tell them to let their hands to their sides.

The reality is that a student is very unlikely to improve an emergency situation, and may very well make it much, much worse. I want my students to feel relaxed. If they ask about pulling the ripcord, I'm ok with that, but the reality is that very few people want to. They want to go for a ride, have some fun, do some "flips and shit" then go home and tell their friends they're a skydiver.

Take it for what it's worth.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'd also like to take a moment to remind everyone about the TI in Nortc Carolina that died under canopy. The passenger knew enough to safely land himself. I'd say that he got a breifing.

D
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Was in South Carolina(doesn't really matter)

That situation actually adds more to towerrats examples.

Chip(the TI) taught the student just enough to almost kill himself. Chip taught him what the toggles were for, how to steer and basically how to land. When it came time to land the student couldn't reach both toggles and only "flared" with the one that he could reach! Thinking that doing so would be better than doing nothing.

Luckily he either didn't pull it hard or high enough to cause a steep dive, but if he would have, it very well could have been a double fatality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Rusty! You are 100% correct.
We were always on the same page of music when it came to procedures and and the boy scout motto "prepare for the worst and hope for the best".
I spoke with Tye a while back and it was good to hear you were back out at freemont county and working with newbies again.
Cheers!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Deisel

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'd also like to take a moment to remind everyone about the TI in Nortc Carolina that died under canopy. The passenger knew enough to safely land himself. I'd say that he got a breifing.

D



You would be wrong.


Skydiving Instructor Dies, First-Timer Lands Safely in Tandem Jump
Published February 02, 2009Associated Press

U.S. soldier Daniel Pharr

inShare
Strapped to his dying instructor a few thousand feet from the ground on his first skydive, Daniel Pharr found himself floating toward a house and some trees.

The military taught the 25-year-old soldier not to panic. And TV taught him to pull the toggles on the already-deployed parachute to steer.

So Pharr grabbed the right handle and pulled to avoid the house and tugged again to miss the trees, landing safely in a field about a third of a mile from their intended landing spot.

Pharr said he wrestled out of the harness binding him to his instructor, George "Chip" Steele, and started CPR trying to save him from an apparent heart attack.

Steele was later pronounced dead, but the tragedy could have been worse: Other instructors at the skydiving school told Pharr if he had pulled the toggle too hard, the chute would have spun out of control, and he could be dead, too.

"They told me afterward that it was amazing that I knew to do that. This is my survival instinct at that point. I just kind of did what I had to do," said Pharr, taking a break Monday from his job at Fort Gordon near Augusta, Ga.

The jump was a Christmas gift from Pharr's girlfriend. The two went to Skydive Carolina in Chester on Saturday to jump from 13,500 feet in the air while attached to instructors.

Steele, 49, gave instructions as the plane climbed. He told Pharr he loved skydiving, having jumped more than 8,000 times.

They were the last of about 10 skydivers to jump out of the plane. Pharr enjoyed a minute of free fall as the cold air rushed by.

"He pulled the chute," Pharr said. "It got super quiet. It's eerily quiet up there. I made the comment to him, 'It's surprising how quiet it is.' And he's like: 'Welcome to my world."'

A few seconds passed, and Pharr asked his instructor another question. This time, Steele didn't answer. Pharr repeated his question. No answer.

"And then I just looked up at him and he looked like he was conscious, but just talking to him, I realized something was wrong," Pharr said. "So at that point I realized I was just going to have to do what I had to do to get down to the ground and try to help him."

The pair ended up about a third of a mile from the airstrip where they were supposed to land, blocked from the spectators by trees. Pharr's CPR failed to revive Steele.

"My only thing walking away is that I wish I could have helped him," Pharr said. "I tried as hard as I could — all my training, I did everything I could."

After paramedics arrived and stepped in to diagnose Steele, Pharr asked them to call his girlfriend, Jessica Brunson, and mother, who was watching from the air strip.

Pharr's mother said all they knew at the time was from a brief message on another staffer's radio: A tandem pair was down and it didn't look good.

"It was an eternity," Darlene Huggins said, when asked how long it took her to hear her son's message he was safe. "No, really, it could have been 10, 15 minutes."

After talking to authorities, Pharr got to see his girlfriend, who he said kept her composure. "Once she saw me, she was in tears," he said.

Huggins said she asked the Lord to keep her son safe. "I just give the glory to God. He was just covered with that hedge of protection that us mamas pray for," she said.

Initial indications are Steele died of a heart attack. Chester County Coroner Terry Tinker said he would wait for a written report from Monday's autopsy before releasing an official cause of death.

Skydive Carolina General Manager James La Barrie released a statement saying it appeared Steele, a test jumper and instructor, died from a medical problem. No one answered the phone Monday at a listing for Steele in Sumter.

Pharr had to work Sunday, so he immediately went back to Fort Gordon, which is home of the Signal Corps, the communications nerve center of the Army, and deals heavily in military intelligence.

He joined the Army a year ago, leaving his job in Columbia selling alarm systems because he wanted to serve the country like his two grandfathers and get money to go to college. When asked what he does, Pharr laughed and said "can't tell you."

Fellow soldiers have been asking him about his jump for the past two days. "It's a once-in-a-lifetime story, and I told them I hope I never have to top it," Pharr said.

Pharr wants to jump again, but it looks like his first skydive will be his last.

"My family has told me I have to keep my feet on the ground," he said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm sure I can find an example to support the opposite opinion. I can also find opinions justifying removing RSLs, jumping without an A.A.D, and a host of other things. My point in making the above post wasn't to dissuade teaching students but to get everyone thinking about the repercussions of the things we do in skydiving. The F.A.Rs require you to provide a ripcord for the student and brief them on it, as do most drop zones. One can never tell what a student is going to do in free fall. The stress affects people in wildly different ways, and it's very hard to cover all the bases in a "one size fits all" briefing.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The reality is that a student is very unlikely to improve an emergency situation, and may very well make it much, much worse.



+1

I really don't want student knowing any more than they NEED to know for a normal jump. Most students have no idea what's going on and are not equipped to act rationally in the moment or to recall their training. Think about how many AFF students do the opposite of what you tell them even after a long class.
Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

worse. I want my students to feel relaxed. If they ask about pulling the ripcord, I'm ok with that, but the reality is that very few people want to.



I would disagree. If you give the student the opportunity and train them how to do it, the majority of people I have asked didn't know it was an option and thought it was great.
We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SEREJumper

Quote

worse. I want my students to feel relaxed. If they ask about pulling the ripcord, I'm ok with that, but the reality is that very few people want to.



I would disagree. If you give the student the opportunity and train them how to do it, the majority of people I have asked didn't know it was an option and thought it was great.



I pretty much feel like you do about that. (Not to be critical of [towwerrat] though.)

Over the years I have mentioned this to numerous people and have found that TIs who do large numbers of tandems either don't have time, or get worn out trying to teach things to every tandem student. (I have had some TIs tell me specifically that they are not allowed the time to teach much because of the schedule.)

Perhaps we are lucky that we have the time to teach as much as we want. I wish everyone could. It is very rewarding!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maybe where you're jumping people think differently. I used to ask every student if they wanted to pull the ripcord and open the parachute. The vast majority would say, "absolutely not". In 4,000 or so tandems very few have expressed any real desire to learn. They all want the instant gratification ride to mark it off the list. Out of those who expressed a desire I've had very few that were aware enough during the skydive to actually be altitude aware and open a parachute. You see, it isn't A.F.F. I generally have five to ten minutes to brief passengers before we go jump. In that briefing I need to cover a whole lot of things, but the reality is that these people are mostly looking for a great time and a great video. By no means am I saying that safety should go by the wayside. I am saying that I have to prioritize and my priorities are as follow:

1) My safety- I know this may sound odd to some of you, and you're probably screaming that passenger safety should be foremost. False. If I'm incapacitated in some way how can I take care of my student?

2) Passenger safety- This is obvious, but I see a lot of guys making poor decisions. I've been guilty myself.

3) Video- customers pay a lot of money for a great video and/or stills package. It's my job to make you look good no matter how badly you're fighting against it.

4) Fun- Fuck yeah! It's supposed to be fun! Isn't this why we're all here? My first jump was a blast. I still remember it today like it was yesterday. My instructor was cool, fairly laid back and didn't lay a bunch of crap on me. I just wanted to make one jump, a carnival ride if you will.

5)Instruction- It's hard for me to put this at the bottom, and I'm very aware of the stats on returning jumpers on certain DZ's regarding first time tandem training. However, if the other four things aren't in place then I simply can't be an effective instructor.

I want people to have a great time and be aware that skydiving is something that the vast majority of us can do. Hell, I have at least one personal friend that I help carry to the airplane because he can't push his chair through the grass ;-). However, at least for where I jump, it's a bit of a carnival ride. That isn't the DZ. The owner is very good about pushing the training, and even comes outside and does a lot of the student training himself. It just seems like the vast majority of the passengers couldn't care less. They want the ride and that's it. To be honest, I'm cool with that.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0