Sign in plane warning students to be hooked up?

[pchapman 261]

I saw this sign on facebook, apparently recently installed in the back of a Caravan jump plane.

[inline RU-Connected-crop.jpg]

Is that a standard sign used anywhere else or is it more likely custom?

I'm curious what others think.

While it is clearly very important for tandem students to be hooked up to their instructor, I see the sign as demonstrating the DZ's lack of trust in their instructors, a bit of a put down.

Looks like it would help scare tandem students, which is not what they need on the ride up & before exit. (A bit confusing to AFF students too.) And students aren't (in many areas) supposed to be hooked up to the instructor during most of the plane ride. Any instructor who gets so jaded, lazy, and tired that they could forget a hookup point, will probably after a month or two at the DZ take no notice of the big red sign either.

[rastapara 0]

I've heard of one case of someone forgetting to connect the upper connectors.... (I believe the story was that he found the TP smelling kinda funky, but all hearsay)

There was at least one TM where I used to jump who always said, If I didnt tell you you are connected, then It might be a good idea to remind me... All the tm's I know count on the hooks on the hooking up process

I once went out lower (182) and saw there was something sketchy going on with the lower hooks (if I remember correctly) I pointed this out to the TM and he already knew and expressed that he was happy with me pointing it out...

It doesnt hurt to remind people they have an intrinsic motivation to be hooked up to a parachute IMO (but I'm not a TM not a current skydiver, not licensed, just a sketchy dude who saw alot of tandems go by on a single 182 dz)...

If you have the space to put up the sign why not, its the skydive thats scary, not the waiver or the signs IMO

Parachute gear garage sale at :http://www.usedparachutes.eu

[Tetrahedron 13]

pchapman

I saw this sign on facebook, apparently recently installed in the back of a Caravan jump plane.



Is that a standard sign used anywhere else or is it more likely custom?

I'm curious what others think.

While it is clearly very important for tandem students to be hooked up to their instructor, I see the sign as demonstrating the DZ's lack of trust in their instructors, a bit of a put down.

Looks like it would help scare tandem students, which is not what they need on the ride up & before exit. (A bit confusing to AFF students too.) And students aren't (in many areas) supposed to be hooked up to the instructor during most of the plane ride. Any instructor who gets so jaded, lazy, and tired that they could forget a hookup point, will probably after a month or two at the DZ take no notice of the big red sign either.

I totally agree with you. It would be very insulting to me as a professional and I would most likely immediately quit.
No passenger needs to stare at a huge red sign, putting doubt in their mind as to whether their instructor will forget procedures.

What's next? A sign on the inside of their goggles, asking if their instructor wil pull?

[normiss 622]

Agreed.

Just asking for trouble with that sign.

[SCS292 1]

There was a song written about that back in 1970, before tandem jumps. Don't get pissed, just ignore. If it confuses an AFF student, go back to ground school.

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign

Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind

Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

[jimmytavino 16]

normiss

Agreed.

Just asking for trouble with that sign.

especially when most Tandem students are NOT hooked to the TM for 3/4 of the ride to altitude.....


talk about the TM having to endure relentless questioning...
"Am i HOOKED Up" " Did you connect Me " Hey WHY aren't we connected..???" " Did YOU connect me Yet.... " That SIGN says I SHOULD be Hooked Up to You".. "What about That"???? Huh?? Huh?? HUH????

Green Light !! Green Light !!!! GREEN LIGHT!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahahaha

[tkhayes 125]

If there weren't so many incidents in tandem history of people leaving the plane with connectors not hooked up it might not be necessary. (including me)

Apparently this DZO/aircraft operator or whomever decided that it was necessary, or at least a good idea.

I started making my students part of the gear check throughout the hookup and the pre-jump checklist. It adds that comfort level, makes them part of the process and forces me to do my routine using them as a witness. But I still would have no objection to a sign like that.

We remind people (with signs) to do their own gear checks, to not slam the door, to wait for the green light, to keep their wingsuits closed, etc. Why? Because people fuck up that's why.

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

I've heard of one case of someone forgetting to connect the upper connectors....

Make that two documented cases, in the Netherlands alone...

Other than that, you can find interesting footage on youtube within a couple of minutes searching that suggest signs @ the door or at least 2 people checking might not be suchs a bad idea after all.

Nobody is above making stupid mistakes and though at first glance this one appears to be beyond stupid, experienced TI's made the mistake in the past. Therefore, this mistake will be made again in the future or so the famous mr. Murphy tells us...

Although it is tempting to see yourself being as much 'larger than life' as your passenger/student believes you to be, the fact of the matter remains that you are not. A few nervous passengers nagging you with the question 'Are we hooked up yet?' right after take of is a small price to pay for jumping with an extra pair of eyes that take notice

Almost always those eyes have a fresh perspective on this whole endeavour of making a two person parachute jump

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[bennibluesky 0]

That sign would make me think about my decision on jumping at that specific dropzone as a tandempassenger as I might think that I can't rely on my TI.

And as a TI jumping there, I would feel embarassed as I would wonder what my passenger might think about me.

I feel responsible for my passenger in a very special way as he or she puts her/his life in my hands. Just as tkhayes already mentioned, I also make them part of my checks. I tell them every single thing im doing in the plane, especially when it comes to connecting the links, I always show them that they are connected.

Our procedure also includes that not every TI is getting ready to jump at the same time, thus we are able to check each other. Gearchecks are made pretty loud, so that atleast the TI near you can hear you.

Sure people fuck up, but that shouldn't mean you have to install signs everywhere. If a TI fails in such an extreme way, he should hand over his license just as he lands. Its simply not forgivable. If the quantity of failures is so high, that signs for TI are needed, I would rather question the quality of my staff, their training or mental capabilities.

Blues

[AdD 1]

The majority of punters wouldn't even notice that sign I bet

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[Douggarr 6]

Imagine seeing a sign like on the instrument panel of a airliner that read, "Have you checked your flight plan with ATC?"

SCR-442, SCS-202, CCR-870, SOS-1353

[pchapman 261]

tkhayes

If there weren't so many incidents in tandem history of people leaving the plane with connectors not hooked up it might not be necessary. (including me)

I figure that any tandem instructor who is so jaded, lazy, tired, and sloppy that he's going to forget to hook up snaps, is going to ignore the big red sign after a while anyway. Maybe, maybe not.

I still find the sign freaking insulting, and ridiculously simple minded, focused only on one exceeding rare thing. But everyone can have their own opinion!

I wouldn't mind as much if there were a smaller sign asking whether you have checked your gear and will be ready to jump when the door is open -- that could be quite reasonable.

There are plenty of other ways to screw up before exiting.

I think that sign would have gotten covered in stickers in protest.

Doesn't matter now. The sign was in the plane only for a week. Actually, it's still in the plane, but they crashed the plane, so the entire plane has been carted off. That wasn't quite the way I wanted to get rid of the damn sign ...

[bennibluesky 0]

The life of an unaware passenger shouldn't be put in the hands of a lazy, tired and sloppy TI. Actually nobodys life should be put in such hands. I would call this an occupation fail. If im not willing to handle the responsibility, I'm not the man for the job.

[pchapman 261]

Maybe I'm belaboring the point (actually I am), but if one has that one huge sign...

[edit to summarize:]

... warning of one real but rare danger, then one should have similar huge signs to warn of all sorts of other dangers, of greater, lesser, or equal concern.

E.g.,
An airplane should also have a giant red sign to warn to check one's pilot chute, one to check ones handles, one for wingsuiters about tailplanes, one for not pulling low, etc.

Not forgetting other people involved, I think the engine compartment of a skydiving aircraft should have a giant red sign warning the mechanic not to do compression checks wrong, the panel a giant red sign warning the pilot to put the gear down for landing, and one not to stall the plane, while the wings would have a giant red sign warning the pilot not to dipstick the fuel tanks wrong, plus a giant red sign in the DZO's office to select & train pilots carefully, a giant red sign at the exit of the DZ to remind people to drive carefully to avoid a crash, a giant red sign warning people of the danger of walking into giant red signs, and so on....

[bennibluesky 0]

Totally agree with you.
Just wanted to express my rejection against this sign.

[normiss 622]

...blocking out the scenery breaking my mind ... do this don't do that...
Can't you read the sign???

[billvon 2,396]

>That sign would make me think about my decision on jumping at that specific
>dropzone as a tandempassenger as I might think that I can't rely on my TI.

Good! If the sign makes students think "I could die doing this!" and a few decide not to jump as a result - the sport is better off overall.

However, it might also make DZO's less money, which will no doubt be the only factor.

>If a TI fails in such an extreme way, he should hand over his license just as he lands.

Agreed. Same with a Cypres. Still, hard to argue that Cypreses are useless.

[normiss 622]

I don't understand what you're trying to say in your last comments.
Do Cypres' have licenses to surrender?

[billvon 2,396]

>I don't understand what you're trying to say in your last comments.

"If a TI fails in such an extreme way, he should hand over his license just as he lands." - Agreed. But if it helps to keep his student alive, the sign still worked.

"If a skydiver fails in such an extreme way that his cypres saves him, then he should hang up his rig once he lands." - A similar argument. But the cypres kept him alive nevertheless, so it worked.

No one should need a sign to remind them to hook up their student if they forget. No one should need a cypres to pull for them if they forget, or an RSL to pull their reserve for them if they forget. But cypreses and RSL's save lives.

[bennibluesky 0]

Yeah, maybe he should hang up his rig, in case falling into cypres is a result of stupidity. Still its good that he has that cypres, no question!

Dont you think there's a small difference between operating an AAD in your rig and to put up signs trying to cover all possible dangers? Its a TI's job to care for the passenger, if he doesent care to link him, why should he care to active the AAD before he jumps. I've never seen signs on rigs warning that cypres has to be activated to save your life. That would be far more useful, according to your logic.

There are way better ways, like TI's crosschecking eachother while getting ready as signing over responsibility to an completely unaware passenger.

I'm pretty happy with the fact, that we didn't end up with this insanity and that we give each other the credit to have something like "common sense".

[billvon 2,396]

>Dont you think there's a small difference between operating an AAD in your rig and to
>put up signs trying to cover all possible dangers?

Sure, a lot of differences. Most students don't know the AAD is there, the AAD is a lot more expensive, the AAD can misfire and hurt you or your student etc etc. But in both cases you are trying to prevent against astronomically rare (and sometimes fatal) mistakes.

>I've never seen signs on rigs warning that cypres has to be activated to save your life.

I've seen lots of signs at DZ's. "WARNING - Propellers rip off heads." "Keep door closed until 1500 feet." "Red light - DO NOT EXIT." "Do not sit behind this line." "Helmets on or stowed for takeoff."

>There are way better ways, like TI's crosschecking eachother while getting ready as
>signing over responsibility to an completely unaware passenger.

Well, you could argue that any TM who needs another TM to crosscheck him should hang up his rig.

But everyone screws up. Third party checks can help catch those screwups, as can regulations (like TM training requirements) signs (like this one) devices (like AAD's and RSL's) and even student training ("make sure you verify that you you are hooked up!") Which ones work best? That's up to each DZ.

[tkhayes 125]

Quote

The life of an unaware passenger shouldn't be put in the hands of a lazy, tired and sloppy TI.

in a perfect world....however we do not live in a perfect world. It's not just TI's, if what you say is the 'standard', then no human being should have ever died in any accident of any kind. which is far from reality. An admirable goal, but not reality.

One man's tired, lazy sloppy TI is another man's talented, experienced, caring, and thorough TI who just happened to make a mistake.

[bennibluesky 0]

billvon

>Dont you think there's a small difference between operating an AAD in your rig and to
>put up signs trying to cover all possible dangers?

Sure, a lot of differences. Most students don't know the AAD is there, the AAD is a lot more expensive, the AAD can misfire and hurt you or your student etc etc. But in both cases you are trying to prevent against astronomically rare (and sometimes fatal) mistakes.

>I've never seen signs on rigs warning that cypres has to be activated to save your life.

I've seen lots of signs at DZ's. "WARNING - Propellers rip off heads." "Keep door closed until 1500 feet." "Red light - DO NOT EXIT." "Do not sit behind this line." "Helmets on or stowed for takeoff."

>There are way better ways, like TI's crosschecking eachother while getting ready as
>signing over responsibility to an completely unaware passenger.

Well, you could argue that any TM who needs another TM to crosscheck him should hang up his rig.

But everyone screws up. Third party checks can help catch those screwups, as can regulations (like TM training requirements) signs (like this one) devices (like AAD's and RSL's) and even student training ("make sure you verify that you you are hooked up!") Which ones work best? That's up to each DZ.

Quote

in a perfect world....however we do not live in a perfect world. It's not just TI's, if what you say is the 'standard', then no human being should have ever died in any accident of any kind. which is far from reality. An admirable goal, but not reality.

One man's tired, lazy sloppy TI is another man's talented, experienced, caring, and thorough TI who just happened to make a mistake.

Im totally aware of the fact, that mistakes are made just because we are human.

I've seen lots of signs too, some of them I would consider useful, some not. We dont have a sign "Props rip off heads" although I would consider it useful. I dont understand this sign as a warning that props are dangerous, more of "There is a prop!" as you often cant see them from behind and DZ visitors and non-skydivers are not used to this environment, so maybe thats a good thing.

But signs like mentioned by the TE or the ones on the back of a passenger gear saying "Danger, skydiving is a high risk activity, etc..." I consider more like they are a joke. High risk... Guess what.... really? Signs on coffee cups telling you "Caution, hot!", nice to know!

Its not about beeing dependent on the crosschecks made by other TI's, its about involving them in your gearcheck. And once again, you involve a professional, not a greenhorn. 4 eyes simply see more than 2 do and realizing and utilizing that has something to to with common sense and using brain.

It doesnt have to be a perfect world at all. If you feel bad, not very well, or lazy a day... or even if you are slompy a day, you better dont jump. If you do anyway and thats the cause for an incident, its not an accident its a disaster which you were willing to accept, you act with intend. Thats a difference.

Accidents never happen that way, they are always a chain of unhappy circumstances.

That is not a skydiving only related trend. We all are considered to be capable of electing our government, but too dump to know that coffee is hot? I dont like this trend at all. It makes it easy to get rid off self-responsibility, doesnt it? We should train and educate ourserlves to be more self-responsive and wide awake as we go through all aspects of life, not just skydiving.

I understand your point, that reducing risk is great, I totally agree with that, but you cant achieve this though putting sings everywhere. It may be reasonable in some cases but it has to stop somewhere. Eventually people will sometime throw themselves infront of a car, just for fun. There was no sign telling them "High mass vehicle, may contain enough kinetic energy at high velocities to harm you."

Blues

[dirtbox 0]

I don't have a problem with a sign, I just wish they used proper English. UPT puts a warning sign on the back of the harness in two languages yet no one hates on that. Every handcam I do I film the top left connector to show (as best as I can with a handcam on in a 182) we are connected before exit.

Perhaps "Are you connected to your tandem instructor?" would of been better.

[normiss 622]

Thanks Bill.
I understand what you meant now!

Agreed as well.