0
matt3sa

TI's @ *Cessna* DZ's - Your Eval Process for "Old Folks" ???

Recommended Posts

I've got somewhere between 600 and 800 Tandems. I've been the only TI at our 182 DZ for the last few years, so I've taken whoever walks through the door. The one area where I struggle is when trying to filter out which "old folks" really shouldn't be making a jump. Over the last few years I've really only declined a few due to very obvious mobility reasons. The oldest person I took was a 90 year old military veteran last summer.

My experiences with "old folks" out of a 182 typically involve frustrations and difficulties with a variety of factors. Obviously the entire process is slower. Communication can be difficult with hearing problems. The hookup is typically extremely frustrating, often to the point where I have to have them sit in my lap and be extra careful not to over-tighten the lowers. The entire process during and after the hookup is generally very uncomfortable (for the older passenger) while waiting to get the door on jump run.

When exit time comes, it's hit or miss on their ability to put their feet on the step and keep them there. This creates an obvious concern for exiting. Without proper foot placement on the step and a flawless push off on exit they could easily smack a variety of parts of their fragile body on the step on the way out. Quite simply you never know how they will handle this area until the time comes. Ground examination seems to be very speculative for this part.

Typically the pre-drogue freefall is ugly as they either forget to arch or aren't strong enough to put their body in the proper position with the harness tension. Not to mention that exit methods are limited due to their mobility and likely difficulty to keep their feet on the step.
When the parachute opens (regardless of how tight I make the harness) there is an almost awkward amount of shift. I put the "laterals" a bit further to their sides instead of around to the front as a precaution without Y modded harnesses. However, this also doesn't assist in making it easier to make sure their feet are up.

Guys, sorry for the novel but looking for evaluation guidelines. The situations I've described sound pretty ugly, but I"ve done a great job keeping people safe given the difficulties I've had to deal with. I'm just trying to get a feel for when you turn an older person away from jumping out of a 182. When is it just NOT worth it? How do you accurately assess if a skydive is viable for an older person out of a 182?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It has got to be tough in a 182, a rear door 206 would make it somewhat easier, but I made a list of 10 things to cover with tandem students. Of course, this is a Twin Otter dropzone, and it has little to do with 182 exits. But you can add to or modify your own 'checklist'

Tough being the only instructor as you are under the pressure of getting people up and out, but there ARE PEOPLE THAT SHOULD NOT BE JUMPING. And it's Ok to say no.

Maybe this helps you to define the criteria a little better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I've been the only TI at our 182 DZ for the last few years, so I've taken whoever walks through the door. The one area where I struggle is when trying to filter out which "old folks" really shouldn't be making a jump.



Would I be right to assume that you're turing back-to-backs all day long? The one way to know for sure is to use a mock-up, or the actual plane. If you only have one 182 (or all of the 182s are turning loads all day), they have to refuel every couple of loads, and that downtime is a chance to practice a climbout if you don't have a 'realistic' mock up.

Again, if you're busy, train someone (or a few people) how to do this, but gear up the potential student and actually go through a hook-up/climbout on the ground. If they can't manage that, they're not going to do any better after a 20+ minute plane ride, and with the wind in the door.

Another idea, if you need more room for a passenger, consider getting a seperate pass for any fun jumpers on the plane. Put them out at 9500, and you get out at 10,500, or similar. If you want to give the fun jumpers more altitude, let them out at 10.5k, then have the pilot close the door and do a couple go-arounds while you get hooked up with the plane otherwise empty. You might have to charge a couple bucks extra for this, but the customer needs to understand that $20 extra is what it takes to make it work for them.

(Don't read this to mean that you should let the fun jumpers open the door and exit with your student un hooked. Do the best hook up you can when the door is open and jumpers are exiting. However, once they are gone, you could unhook, and reposition yourself and the student, and then hook up in your preferred/easiest position)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Real GOOD Checklist TK

and in todays climate of people feeling like they NEED to DO
some "Bucket List" ( i don't much Care for that term) behaviors...
skydiving tends to get ONTO such lists......


but common sense should prevail and if the general public is tooo naive to really understand Alll the details of the plane ride, the climb out, the exit, the skydive...AND the landing, then it IS important for those who DO know...to assert themselves in the best interests of the buying public...( as well as the DZ, soas to head off ANY sort of "aftershocks" )

Besides If someone has " always wanted " to make a jump and yet has gotten deep into their lives without Stepping UP to DO it....then there is nothing wrong with telling them that their "window of opportunity " has passed them by...
Simply having a charge card with an " available credit limit " does not necessarily Qualify a person to make a skydive..
imho...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have over 1000 Tandems from a 182. Personally, I think the best way for older people is to have them sit on your lap while you are kneeling down. Back up to the door, put your left foot out, and then have them put their left foot out(with your assistance) and then their right foot. When you leave, do a quick barrel roll towards the wing - very stable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
student: "I've been wanting to do this for 50 years"
TK: "You should have done it 50 years ago when you were still in good shape"

student: "But I really really want to skydive"
TK: "I really really want to be an astronaut, but that ain't gonna happen either"

student: "I'll be OK"
TK: " You have no idea if you will be OK or not, but I most certainly have a point of view based on decades of experience that you just MIGHT NOT be OK""

student: "I don't care if I get hurt"
TK: "I do"

etc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

It has got to be tough in a 182, a rear door 206 would make it somewhat easier, but I made a list of 10 things to cover with tandem students. Of course, this is a Twin Otter dropzone, and it has little to do with 182 exits. But you can add to or modify your own 'checklist'

Tough being the only instructor as you are under the pressure of getting people up and out, but there ARE PEOPLE THAT SHOULD NOT BE JUMPING. And it's Ok to say no.

Maybe this helps you to define the criteria a little better.



I hadn't actually ever thought of asking the kind of questions you listed. Thanks for the PDF. Seems like the consensus is that 182's generally suck for Old Folks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I have over 1000 Tandems from a 182. Personally, I think the best way for older people is to have them sit on your lap while you are kneeling down. Back up to the door, put your left foot out, and then have them put their left foot out(with your assistance) and then their right foot. When you leave, do a quick barrel roll towards the wing - very stable.



divingos, that would be a barrel roll towards your left shoulder correct?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

I've been the only TI at our 182 DZ for the last few years, so I've taken whoever walks through the door. The one area where I struggle is when trying to filter out which "old folks" really shouldn't be making a jump.



Would I be right to assume that you're turing back-to-backs all day long? The one way to know for sure is to use a mock-up, or the actual plane. If you only have one 182 (or all of the 182s are turning loads all day), they have to refuel every couple of loads, and that downtime is a chance to practice a climbout if you don't have a 'realistic' mock up.

Again, if you're busy, train someone (or a few people) how to do this, but gear up the potential student and actually go through a hook-up/climbout on the ground. If they can't manage that, they're not going to do any better after a 20+ minute plane ride, and with the wind in the door.

Another idea, if you need more room for a passenger, consider getting a seperate pass for any fun jumpers on the plane. Put them out at 9500, and you get out at 10,500, or similar. If you want to give the fun jumpers more altitude, let them out at 10.5k, then have the pilot close the door and do a couple go-arounds while you get hooked up with the plane otherwise empty. You might have to charge a couple bucks extra for this, but the customer needs to understand that $20 extra is what it takes to make it work for them.

(Don't read this to mean that you should let the fun jumpers open the door and exit with your student un hooked. Do the best hook up you can when the door is open and jumpers are exiting. However, once they are gone, you could unhook, and reposition yourself and the student, and then hook up in your preferred/easiest position)



Good suggestions. Most of them I've been doing already (practice hookups on the ground, light loads etc). Think it would be wrong to charge the DZO or Tandem student a small "eval" fee for this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I have over 1000 Tandems from a 182. Personally, I think the best way for older people is to have them sit on your lap while you are kneeling down. Back up to the door, put your left foot out, and then have them put their left foot out(with your assistance) and then their right foot. When you leave, do a quick barrel roll towards the wing - very stable.



....................................................................

Regardless of the age of the student, I like to do a variation of that exit.
I prefer to sit beside the pilot, facing aft.
The student sits between my knees for the entire airplane ride. I can easily do the entire hook-up and (side-strap) tightening with both of our butts still on the floor.
After the pilot opens the door, I glance at the spot, put my left foot on the step ... slap the student on their left knee and yell "Feet out!'
Sometimes I grab their left leg to help.
It is nice if they get both feet on the step, but the lighter the student, the less it matters.
With petite Japanese girls, I am happy if their feet just trail aft of the landing gear strut, with their calves gently resting on top of the strut.
I tap them on the forehead, tuck their arms in and launch towards the tail.
As long as I extend my arms above my head and tuck my feet back onto my butt, we go vertical for a second, then start to level off.
I have done thousands of stable exits from Cessna 172, 182, 205, 206, 207 and 210 this way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

I have over 1000 Tandems from a 182. Personally, I think the best way for older people is to have them sit on your lap while you are kneeling down. Back up to the door, put your left foot out, and then have them put their left foot out(with your assistance) and then their right foot. When you leave, do a quick barrel roll towards the wing - very stable.



....................................................................

Regardless of the age of the student, I like to do a variation of that exit.
I prefer to sit beside the pilot, facing aft.
The student sits between my knees for the entire airplane ride. I can easily do the entire hook-up and (side-strap) tightening with both of our butts still on the floor.
After the pilot opens the door, I glance at the spot, put my left foot on the step ... slap the student on their left knee and yell "Feet out!'
Sometimes I grab their left leg to help.
It is nice if they get both feet on the step, but the lighter the student, the less it matters.
With petite Japanese girls, I am happy if their feet just trail aft of the landing gear strut, with their calves gently resting on top of the strut.
I tap them on the forehead, tuck their arms in and launch towards the tail.
As long as I extend my arms above my head and tuck my feet back onto my butt, we go vertical for a second, then start to level off.
I have done thousands of stable exits from Cessna 172, 182, 205, 206, 207 and 210 this way.



Would love to see an outside video of this. I'm in a shitty position because the co pilot yolk isn't removed. Pilot that owns the plane refuses to remove it so its tough to get out that way with that little space .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
/reply] ".... I'm in a shitty position because the co pilot yolk isn't removed. Pilot that owns the plane refuses to remove it so its tough to get out that way with that little space .



...................................................................................

Yup!
Is the owner the same as your regular jump-pilot?

If he is not on the DZ, I would quietly un-bolt the "handle"of the control yoke ... and equally quietly re-install it at the end of the jumping day.

Then you only have to dodge the tube sticking out of the instrument panel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If you want to give the fun jumpers more altitude, let them out at 10.5k, then have the pilot close the door and do a couple go-arounds while you get hooked up with the plane otherwise empty.



I don't know what your rules are but here all passengers must be connected before the door is opened. [:/]
2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0