pchapman 278 #26 March 28, 2013 Quote I see fx250's fly all day long and they all(as in both ti and student) stand em up all day long So, without fighting about things, what is the status of these canopies? They are actually made for student jumps? In service somewhere, not just prototypes? What kinds of DZs? What kinds of rigs do they fit into? (The crossbracing will of cource help make up for the low square footage.) If they can be stood up no problem, it would be great some day to see footage of such canopies in service. What kind of instructor qualifications do DZ's have for such canopies? I hear that at a Tandem Commandments seminar at the PIA (in the last couple days), this kind of canopy was specifically mentioned as the style that the manufacturers would not approve in their rigs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DARK 0 #27 March 28, 2013 Quote If you can guarantee with 100% certainty that the instructor will never, EVER mess up a swoop then maybe there would be a point, but then they'd be better then every skydiver who has ever lived. You cant guarantee anything in this sport, thats the point. There are people out there who can fly these wings as well as most can fly the bigger ones. Of course you cant guarantee anything but I would rather jump with a confident 5000 tandem ti, who knows the ins and outs of canopy flight and has tested himself under all sorts of wings, under a 250 than a guy with 1000 jumps total under a 365. The funkier the conditions the more I want to be attached to the former. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chris74 0 #28 March 28, 2013 Hello Birds, Thanks for the tread ! Air france & British airways flew passengers during 20 years at mach 2 ! For sure cross braced canopies are more efficient and I am pretty sure tip top & safe landing are constantly doable but what about an incident during the opening ? Line twist, unsolvable autorotation ..... By the way, which size are available ? A TFX 330 could be a weaopn of choice Progress is on its way and we used to jump PD 425 15 years ago so we must not throw the baby out with the bath water. Wait, test fly it & we will see Blue sky Xtophe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #29 March 28, 2013 QuoteQuote If you can guarantee with 100% certainty that the instructor will never, EVER mess up a swoop then maybe there would be a point, but then they'd be better then every skydiver who has ever lived. You cant guarantee anything in this sport, thats the point. There are people out there who can fly these wings as well as most can fly the bigger ones. Of course you cant guarantee anything but I would rather jump with a confident 5000 tandem ti, who knows the ins and outs of canopy flight and has tested himself under all sorts of wings, under a 250 than a guy with 1000 jumps total under a 365. The funkier the conditions the more I want to be attached to the former. You're missing the point entirely. Of course you'd rather be attached to the more experienced instructor - so would I. But would you rather be attached to the experienced instructor doing the safest possible landing, or attached to the same guy NOT doing the safest possible landing? Which would you rather a member of your family was attached to?? Likewise, I'm not suggesting that technology of the wing itself is a bad thing. I'm all for advancements (particularly in canopies!) but this isn't about that. It's about instructors wanting to have their cake and eat it at the potential expense of a student - to get paid for skydiving by being a tandem instructor AND getting their swoop on and thereby INCREASING the danger to a non skydiver. And THAT'S the unacceptable bit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DARK 0 #30 March 29, 2013 QuoteQuoteQuote If you can guarantee with 100% certainty that the instructor will never, EVER mess up a swoop then maybe there would be a point, but then they'd be better then every skydiver who has ever lived. You cant guarantee anything in this sport, thats the point. There are people out there who can fly these wings as well as most can fly the bigger ones. Of course you cant guarantee anything but I would rather jump with a confident 5000 tandem ti, who knows the ins and outs of canopy flight and has tested himself under all sorts of wings, under a 250 than a guy with 1000 jumps total under a 365. The funkier the conditions the more I want to be attached to the former. You're missing the point entirely. Of course you'd rather be attached to the more experienced instructor - so would I. But would you rather be attached to the experienced instructor doing the safest possible landing, or attached to the same guy NOT doing the safest possible landing? Which would you rather a member of your family was attached to?? Likewise, I'm not suggesting that technology of the wing itself is a bad thing. I'm all for advancements (particularly in canopies!) but this isn't about that. It's about instructors wanting to have their cake and eat it at the potential expense of a student - to get paid for skydiving by being a tandem instructor AND getting their swoop on and thereby INCREASING the danger to a non skydiver. And THAT'S the unacceptable bit. I understand that is your point and you might be right that might be what it is about but I dont think it is. To answer your question about who I would want my family with, I would want them with the expert pilot flying the equipment he felt was best suited to the job / conditions he faced. Also I dont think being conservative and doing the most conservative landing is the same thing as being safe and doing the safest landing. There can be situations that warrant a more aggresive approach / style whatever. I just dont think its as simple as higher performance wing = more risk. I think its more complicated then that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #31 March 29, 2013 QuoteI just dont think its as simple as higher performance wing = more risk. I think its more complicated then that. No, it's not, and I have the experience to say that.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chris74 0 #32 March 29, 2013 You are both right, An experimented TI, landing straight a TFX 3(1-3)0, could be the best of both world Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #33 March 29, 2013 I'm over this arguments whether is it right to fly such wing or not. They do exist and those ti that flys em does hell alot better job than those who flys conventional 9cell. Is this wing for everyone or every dz??? Not really. Just like Icarus 300 is not for every dz or every ti.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdD 1 #34 March 29, 2013 QuoteThere is no way that deliberately INCREASING the level of difficulty of a landing doesn't result in an INCREASE in the danger to the passenger. I'm no expert as I only have 2400 tandems but I swooped just about every one and didn't have any issues. Level of difficulty can be very subjective. I honestly believe the added speed is a margin of safety. I'm not talking about vicious hooks here, but doing what amounts to a toggle carve where you can flare and flatten out at any point if necessary. When you are plained out with a tandem if they put feet down you can just flare a bit or scoop their legs. Without the added speed I think you are more vulnerable to turbulence and getting dropped out of the sky, which is when people really get hurt. Speed is life in aviation. This may not be right for everyone but its the only way I will do tandems.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toolbox 0 #35 March 29, 2013 >what about an incident during the opening? Thats what worries me. They sound great as long as everything is going well,but what if you have a hard spinning mal? There are now many cases of very experienced people under spinning,heavily loaded x-braced canopies having difficulty by themselves,let alone with a student strapped to their chest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dokeman 0 #36 March 30, 2013 When you get into swooping, there's really only one thing you need to understand. "Its not if, its when!" I'm referring to hitting the ground really hard. Do everyone in skydiving a favor and don't drag innocent people into that. It dosen't matter how good you are, its just not fair for the passenger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toolbox 0 #37 March 30, 2013 I have flown 330's alot,and some sigma 340's as well,both at close to sea level field elevations. I had very nice soft openings and sweet stand up landings even with no wind on both the 330 and the 340. I would not recommend a 330 or 340 at a hot and high elevation DZ. In colorado at 5864 MSL I used 365's,400's,and my favorite the sigma 370, and they were all fast in that air. I can see wanting a smaller canopy with excellent performance at windy sea level DZ's with small customers. The potential force that one of these small mains could generate in a spinning mal scenario is what makes me nervous. I've had a few tandem mals that spun us on our backs pretty hard and they were on 365's or bigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
