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promise5

General thoughts on kids being able to do a Tandem

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I really don't see the average kid under 15-16ish having sufficient developmental maturity, life experience and judgment to realistically assesss and appreciate the risk of death associated with all parachute jumping.



Hell I don't believe most 25 year olds in the US do either. The question remains would a jury believe they do.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Put your siblings in a vertical wind tunnel. For the cost of a
tandem, they can learn to FLY!



This.

Watching the kids in the tunnel is amazing.

The younger the better they insta fly.
They live in Alaska, its hard finding the DZ there and there isn't a tunnel. Not even sure of the closest one. Hopefully, when they come to visit in this summer I'll be able to get them up to the tunnel.
No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

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I think if a person is big enough to be safely fitted into the harness then they should be able to go...period.
I can think of exactly ZERO instances where a child has been injured on a tandem and even though people don't want to talk about it TONS of us have taken people under 18 on tandems.

The most ridiculous thing I ever had to do was teach a huge group of Military School 16-year-olds SL progression one weekend because we were not allowed to take them on tandems. How stupid is that? It was "legal" to teach them to skydive with parental consent, but not "legal" to take them on a tandem.

FWIW: I'm not afraid to say that I took my niece when she was 12 and my nephew when he was 14. Both my sister and her husband were jumpers and begged me to do it. It was out of my dad's 182 with his tandem rig. Christian Shoemig took his kid around age two. Roger Nelson took his kids when they were very young. Bill Booth took his daughter to the NORTH POLE when she was very young. We ALL with we could do it openly. At least that's what we all say in private.

How many "kids" get killed every year on ski slopes? A LOT of them.

Chuck

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How many "kids" get killed every year on ski slopes? A LOT of them.

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Granted...but the general public perception at this time is Skiing is an acceptable risk where as skydiving isn't.

And let's be honest here...public perception is the cornerstone that the current house of cards the sport has become - is BUILT on.

Tandems are without question the driving force behind every $uccessful commercial drop-zone in existence.

They're what keep the turbines running, pays the bills for everyone from the Manufacturer to the DZO to the Instructor & Packer.

It's absolutely in EVERYONE'S best interest to keep a 100% clean & positive public perception regarding Tandem Skydiving...period.

You can say with probable certainty that no minors have been seriously injured doing a Tandem jump...but I'd imagine that's more because there aren't supposed to BE any minor jumping, which greatly reduces the numbers actually participating.

IF 1/3 of all the Tandems done each year were done carrying minors, it stands to reason about a 1/3 of the annual injuries would be represented within that group.

The cold hard facts are - If we kill Jack & paralyze Jill because they went Skydiving instead of up the hill...SOMEBODY out there is gonna call us on it.

Minors are not only 'under the age of consent' they characteristically are rather naive when it comes to evaluating risk...it's IN their job description to be that way.

Therefore the responsibility becomes 'ours' to make the right decision that's best over-all for everyone.

'Public Perception' was one more 'slip through the harness fatality' away from shutting down this dog show big time...dent up some poor innocent little crumb munching porch monkey - parents consent not-withstanding - and 'they' will be coming outta the woodwork with REAL muscle, to regulate it in D.C. or close it down altogether.

Sometimes we gotta look at the 'big picture', just because you CAN do something - doesn't mean ya should.

Most of the manufactures recognize the risk minors on Tandems represent..aside from the obvious liability concerns, there's a very real bottom line $ figure that could/would be adversely affected should public perception of 'us' become jaded.

Personally I kinda LIKE big busy drop-zones with all the amenities we've come to take for granted...I like the self-policing aspect of recommendations instead of hard fast rules.

Chuck you've been around the sun a few times, you remember the 'Time B4 Tandem'...it would really suck to fuck this up now - when in comparison to what the sport was back then...we currently are fartin' through silk! B|











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I'll admit I was on the side of letting kids over a certain age and size do a tandem. Someone like my brother. But in reading everything and then in seeing just how sue happy our society is I would hate for the sport to suffer just because someone got sue happy.
No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

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I'll admit I was on the side of letting kids over a certain age and size do a tandem. Someone like my brother. But in reading everything and then in seeing just how sue happy our society is I would hate for the sport to suffer just because someone got sue happy.



Over here in the netherlands kids can go if they fit in the harness properly. Parents need to sign the waiver. Youngest kid I took up was 11 y/o. Imo from an experience standpoint thats the lower limit, and that depends per kid. Below 11/10 the whole experience is too overwhelming (it's loud and stuff) i think to be enjoyed fully by them.

As far as risk of injury, i'd venture to say there may even be a little less risk of injury (aside from injuries from catastophic failures ofcourse) Most injuries occur on landing and with the "average"10-16 kid it's almost like you're jumping w/o passenger because they weigh so little (at least here in the netherlands, maybe different in big mac country ;))

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All legalities aside, I'm opposed to allowing skydiving (in any country) by anyone who, in terms of mental, intellectual and emotional development or condition, does not have a truly realistic appreciation of the unique risk of death inherent in any and every parachute jump. For juveniles, as a general rule (with some individual exceptions), I think that kicks-in at around the age 15-16 mark. I'd feel the same way re: someone of any age who is developmentally delayed (formerly known as mentally retarded) or suffering from dementia or brain damage; those latter instances would have to be determined on a case-by-case basis (which I admit may be totally impractical).

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I'm opposed to allowing skydiving (in any country) by anyone who, in terms of mental, intellectual and emotional development or condition, does not have a truly realistic appreciation of the unique risk of death inherent in any and every parachute jump.



and that would rid you and every other TI/TM of 90% of all passengers
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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I'm opposed to allowing skydiving (in any country) by anyone who, in terms of mental, intellectual and emotional development or condition, does not have a truly realistic appreciation of the unique risk of death inherent in any and every parachute jump.



and that would rid you and every other TI/TM of 90% of all passengers



Nonsense. You're just twiddling with my point, which doesn't advance the discussion, and doesn't merit a serious rebuttal.

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I think every kid is different, some are likely ready by 12-14 (particularly those who've dealt with death or are terminally ill), others aren't ready at 22-24. Ages 16, 18, 21...these are abritrary numbers that society attaches special status to, but which have little significance for any individual. Personally, I like my house, so i stick with 18+ rule. I took my daughter for her 16th birthday, and I'd consider a terminally ill minor, but that's about it for exceptions in my book.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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I'm opposed to allowing skydiving (in any country) by anyone who, in terms of mental, intellectual and emotional development or condition, does not have a truly realistic appreciation of the unique risk of death inherent in any and every parachute jump.



and that would rid you and every other TI/TM of 90% of all passengers



coming to think of it, that will probably get rid of 90% of the Ti's as well, most are mentally challenged from what I can tell

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All legalities aside, I'm opposed to allowing skydiving (in any country) by anyone who, in terms of mental, intellectual and emotional development or condition, does not have a truly realistic appreciation of the unique risk of death inherent in any and every parachute jump. For juveniles, as a general rule (with some individual exceptions), I think that kicks-in at around the age 15-16 mark. I'd feel the same way re: someone of any age who is developmentally delayed (formerly known as mentally retarded) or suffering from dementia or brain damage; those latter instances would have to be determined on a case-by-case basis (which I admit may be totally impractical).



It is a real dilemma. I cringe every time I see a kid doing a tandem, our minimum age is 12. The latest magazine even has an article on a 13 year old 'skydiving birthday party'. Part of me can't shake the fear of 'what if', but then 2 days ago a 13 year old drowned in the ocean while swimming.

I feel schizophrenic about kids and risks like this, part of me says it is healthy and you can't live in cotton wool, and another part says it is unacceptable. I would guess that swimming in un-patrolled beaches is more dangerous than a tandem and yet I do it all the time with my kids.

I don't think I've met any tandem pax who 'understood' the risk. Some are scared, but that doesn't equate to understanding. Ultimately like certain other parts of life, it is probably best for kids to wait till adulthood. It doesn't harm them to wait.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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I don't think I've met any tandem pax who 'understood' the risk. Some are scared, but that doesn't equate to understanding.



I doubt I fully appreciated the risk when I made my first jump a few days after my 18th birthday. But I certainly recognized that I might die, and I chose to make that decision for myself. I don't think my capacity to make that decision would have been all that much less had I gone thru only a pre-tandem briefing rather than a 5-hour FJC.

To me, it's a matter of having sufficient mental and developmental capacity and judgment to knowingly assume that level of risk for oneself. Of course, it's a moving target. But the particular risk of possible death inherent to all parachute jumping is quite unique compared to just about any other activity, even the riskier ones. Re: juveniles: some 16 year-olds do have this judgment, some do not; but the average 12 or 13 year-old who doesn't grow up very close to skydiving generally does not.

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Your comments are Retarded... We as parents allow our children to participate in activities every day they cant possibly realize the true danger of..
For example Bike riding, Skate Boarding, swimming, tree climbing, sking, snowboarding, riding with mom,dad,friends, on the road with others who may be drunk or high.... Kids who learn early are more adapt and fully aware than most adults...

If you have any question about that Just Look at Rook Nelson who was exposed to the sky by his loving father before most of you would allow your babies off the tit...

Ive taken a few children in Mexico and they were fun and excited... AND much better passengers than most adults. I have also taken Mentally challenged and developmentally delayed persons who chose to skydive and the were AWESOME as well.

Who the heck do you think you are to say you can judge better than them weather or not they should skydive??

Seems pretty damn arrogant that you are all powerful... Seems like someone might want to assess your abilities some day and declare you not capable. B|>:(:(B|:P

Ive never once even heard of a child almost getting hurt while skydiving unless it was one of those crazy Mullins boys who started after they were Like 12 or something.. damn lucky kids I think..

JM2C


Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

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I made my first tandem when I was 8... I found the freefall part to be death scary, but the canopy ride was awsome... the four following tandems I made in the 8 years after that where really fun!

8 was to young for me... but another TM I know took both of his kids at the age of 8, and they found the experience to be awsome, start to finish... Its a case by case thing IMO

at the age of 8 I had no real insight in the risk, but I don't think any whuffo has a real insight in the risk, even watching the manufacturers video and reading the waiver... You know its empirically obvious that its dangerous, especially because its scary, but also because its a real plane, really high, and you have a guy on your back with two closed packages, an eight year old can figure that out. But everyone just seems to do it and come back smiling, so when you feel like it, and the opportunity is there, you go for it (like any non-minor could and would)

So this means, that to me, for the kids, its not about assessing the risk, but assessing the scare factor.... (for lawyers its probably about the risk factor- but if it where up to the lawyers.... geez don't get me started)

My dad, the Dzo always had the following procedure dealing with under age kids. He'd put on his angry-DZO-face, and ask another tandem master the follow his lead. We get the parents out of the room, and then ask the kid if he really wants to make the jump, and tell them, that, if we are going up you're attached to the TM and ask them "what do you think will happen if you don't want to go and you're attached to the TM and he leaves the plane?" - if the kids response was something along the lines like, I dont care, I wanna go... we'd take m'. We've had quit a few who response was, I don't know if I'm ready, I don't want to go anymore. (So sometimes its more of a parents idea, this is to me the most important thing to look out for IMO)

But these are just my 2 cents (I do feel like a total fuck up in life.... but I dont that those few tandems are to blame for that B|:P:PB|)

Parachute gear garage sale at :http://www.usedparachutes.eu

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Who the heck do you think you are to say you can judge better than them weather or not they should skydive??

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So YOU think a child can decide whether or not they should skydive?

How about drive a car? Smoke a joint? Drink a few shots before gym class?











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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My 9 year old cousin went skydiving last year. He had seen his dad jump and now really wanted it too. Really loved the freefall and had one CRAZY instructor. Ofcourse they know that people die doing this, but a jump's worth the odds.

Heck, I wish I was brave enough to start back then. I did my first solo on 16, though.

But honestly I don't think kids under 14 should be able to jump for multiple reasons... Stick to the tunnel maybe.
I am bad at this sport because I play by the rules.

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That was in reference to comments concerning Mentally challenged and developmentally delayed persons who may choose to skydive... Most times they have the same or better understanding of fear and danger. Or their guardian or parent has the responsibility to make those choices as well parents should and do decide what risk level is acceptable for their children.

If you cant handle the task of Jumping with these people then move out of the way and let someone who can enjoy sharing with them. Judging them and deciding for them is not your place...

JM2C

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

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That was in reference to comments concerning Mentally challenged and developmentally delayed persons who may choose to skydive... Most times they have the same or better understanding of fear and danger. Or their guardian or parent has the responsibility to make those choices as well parents should and do decide what risk level is acceptable for their children.

If you cant handle the task of Jumping with these people then move out of the way and let someone who can enjoy sharing with them. Judging them and deciding for them is not your place...

JM2C



Thanks for clarifying...I understood you to mean minors.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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The younger the better they insta fly.

Tunnel time till they are 18, then AFF like ninjas.

Are you okay with 16?



I'd be ok with as young as they can legally enter into a contract and sign a waiver. That is 18 I believe, but if that changed, Id be cool with 16 year olds going skydiving for sure.

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I would be fine taking anyone that fit in the harness as far as safety goes

common sense says that if they are not at least 13 they probably have no idea what they are asking to do and while they might enjoy it I dont think its a very good idea.

my kid will hopefully get to be in the tunnell weekly until they reach 12/13 and I convince someone to let me take them on a tandem(assuming they want to)

for aff I think I would be ok with a 15 yr old doing it if it was a pretty mature or well clued in 15 yr old but not younger than that.

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