Skydiving employee fined by FAA

[TomNoonan 1]

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If true, then wouldn't it have been a good idea to disclose that information at the time? Not saying it is not true, but maybe the wakeup call then would have prevented this.

USPA's "Call To Action" was just that, the wake up call. Honestly, I get your line of reasoning, but if the tandem industry needed a threat that "if this happens again, you will lose tandems" in order to ensure that student harnesses are fitted properly......then we are in big trouble as an industry and an organization......

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Still, I don't put much weight in "off the record conversations" unless I was a party to them, or someone I personally know was a part to it. Too much rumor potential.

Introduce yourself to me at the Perfect Spot next time we are both in town, and then you'll know someone personally. I was directly involved in the investigation of the incident in May 2006. I speak from first hand knowlegde of the incident and the conversations that were going around with the FAA at the time.

Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

[Ron 7]

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but if the tandem industry needed a threat that "if this happens again, you will lose tandems" in order to ensure that student harnesses are fitted properly......then we are in big trouble as an industry and an organization......

We clearly are in trouble then... Because nothing else has worked.

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Introduce yourself to me at the Perfect Spot next time we are both in town, and then you'll know someone personally.

I'll take you up in that... I am sure there is plenty we can discuss. Honestly, I have given up on the USPA to do anything productive.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[TomNoonan 1]

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Perfect. I am in transit to Kathmandu, will tentatively be back in Deland Nov 17th. Email me and I will send my cell #.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts and opinions on things. Talk soon.

Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

[skypuppy 1]

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Perfect. I am in transit to Kathmandu, will tentatively be back in Deland Nov 17th. Email me and I will send my cell #.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts and opinions on things. Talk soon.

Tom

are you the same guy that was in 'house of the devil' and 'wolfen'?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[mjosparky 3]

I just noticed that the subject line for this tread referrers to a “Skydiving employee”. I would guess that he files his taxes with a 1099 not a W2. But then if someone tells you when to be at work and what to do when you are there you are not an “independent contractor” but an employee.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[stratostar 5]

I worded the thread from the headline in the news.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[airtwardo 6]

I was directly involved in the investigation of the incident in May 2006. I speak from first hand knowledge of the incident and the conversations that were going around with the FAA at the time.

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I spoke with both Bill & Ted at the PIA convention following those incidents...Left me with no doubt in my mind we were at a cross-road that could have changed the sport as we knew/know it.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[matthewcline 0]

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I just noticed that the subject line for this tread referrers to a “Skydiving employee”. I would guess that he files his taxes with a 1099 not a W2. But then if someone tells you when to be at work and what to do when you are there you are not an “independent contractor” but an employee.

Sparky

Several IRS Auditors feel the same way. And really if an "employee" looked into it, they would want to be "employed" as well, far better for their taxes, benefits, and PROTECTION. Since they are doing what they are being told to do.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Southern_Man 0]

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Several IRS Auditors feel the same way. And really if an "employee" looked into it, they would want to be "employed" as well, far better for their taxes, benefits, and PROTECTION. Since they are doing what they are being told to do.

Matt

Can you point to any IRS or court decisions on this point?

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[normiss 622]

IRS

[Southern_Man 0]

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IRS

I'm aware of those guidelines. The IRS generally only seeks to determine status for particular workers or groups of workers in court actions or in review of particular forms. Matt indicated that he knew of specific instances where this was being reviewed. I can't find any, but perhaps my google-fu is weak.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[matthewcline 0]

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IRS

I'm aware of those guidelines. The IRS generally only seeks to determine status for particular workers or groups of workers in court actions or in review of particular forms. Matt indicated that he knew of specific instances where this was being reviewed. I can't find any, but perhaps my google-fu is weak.

I wrote, Auditors, and their feelings, not court cases. But maybe the case in Ohio might apply.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[robinheid 0]

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In Reply To
Where is the due process?

I may have missed it, do we know how he was notified. He should have been notified by Certified mail – Return receipt requested. It should state what his offence is and give him a date by which he needs to appeal.

Exactly. Robin is not the first person I've heard crying that there has not been due process in this.... and any other recent incidences where the FAA has been involved at Lodi for that matter. I am really sorry, but if you don't know anything about the process that happens when you are fined by the FAA, then don't say anything. Both in the aircraft fines AND this fine for the tandem instructor, everybody is given the same due process. You are notified, you have a date, and you can file for an appeal. You can request to appeal to a board.

What happened here is the instructor may not want to appeal to something he is obviously guilty of and has no chance in fighting. It's not worth the money or time. This is NOT the same of robbing him of his due process.


It's craziness to think that everybody is throwing this guy to the wolves. You held this same defensive position with regards to Bill when he screwed the pooch on the whole aircraft mx thing. I'm sorry, but if it looks like a turd, and smells like a turd, people aren't going to look the other way. Neither is the FAA. So don't make us or the FAA out to be the bad guys.

If you'll notice, the FAA did nothing until more than a year after the fact, after the video went viral.

Then it acted with great dispatch and a heavy hand, and you can snivel all you want about it, but this was due process in form but not substance, and specifically designed to set precedence by going after someone no one on our side is smart enough to defend on principle.

Please keep in mind the Euro weathermen who were recently arrested for not warning people sufficiently about a storm or something.

When judgment calls at this level become legally actionable by regulatory agencies that are answerable to no one, freedom has a big problem.

THAT is the focus of my comments, not 9th grade civics class debate points, but we can revisit this when you've been around a few more years.

44

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[LyraM45 0]

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In Reply To
Where is the due process?

I may have missed it, do we know how he was notified. He should have been notified by Certified mail – Return receipt requested. It should state what his offence is and give him a date by which he needs to appeal.

Exactly. Robin is not the first person I've heard crying that there has not been due process in this.... and any other recent incidences where the FAA has been involved at Lodi for that matter. I am really sorry, but if you don't know anything about the process that happens when you are fined by the FAA, then don't say anything. Both in the aircraft fines AND this fine for the tandem instructor, everybody is given the same due process. You are notified, you have a date, and you can file for an appeal. You can request to appeal to a board.

What happened here is the instructor may not want to appeal to something he is obviously guilty of and has no chance in fighting. It's not worth the money or time. This is NOT the same of robbing him of his due process.


It's craziness to think that everybody is throwing this guy to the wolves. You held this same defensive position with regards to Bill when he screwed the pooch on the whole aircraft mx thing. I'm sorry, but if it looks like a turd, and smells like a turd, people aren't going to look the other way. Neither is the FAA. So don't make us or the FAA out to be the bad guys.

If you'll notice, the FAA did nothing until more than a year after the fact, after the video went viral.

Then it acted with great dispatch and a heavy hand, and you can snivel all you want about it, but this was due process in form but not substance, and specifically designed to set precedence by going after someone no one on our side is smart enough to defend on principle.

Please keep in mind the Euro weathermen who were recently arrested for not warning people sufficiently about a storm or something.

When judgment calls at this level become legally actionable by regulatory agencies that are answerable to no one, freedom has a big problem.

THAT is the focus of my comments, not 9th grade civics class debate points, but we can revisit this when you've been around a few more years.

44

The FAA probably didn't know about the incident until the video. I'm pretty sure Bill or any other employees from Lodi didn't give a courtesy 'just to let you know' call to the FAA after granny almost fell out of her harness. I'm sure if the FAA knew about it, they would have done something from the start; and I'm sure they still would have been 'quick and heavy' since Bill is already on their shit list from previous fines and allegations. Honestly, if the DZ hadn't 'polished a turd' (as somebody so eloquently put it in another thread a few months ago) by releasing the jump video, then the FAA still probably wouldn't know about it right now.

The rest of what you have stated is opinion. You feel 'in substance' that there was no due process. Well, good for you. Majority of folks will probably disagree. Point still stands, the employee has been afforded the same due process as anybody else fined by the FAA.

And I have no clue how you even equated this with the stuff that just happened with the scientists in Europe. And trust me, I should be the first to understand what you're trying to say because I'm a meteorologist and have been keeping a close eye on what happened to these scientists who were supposed to predict the ultimately unpredictable, like I do. You're really rambling and grasping here....which is something you'll still do if we talk down the road after I've had a few more years in (past the 11 I already have in) the sport.

Both in this incident and in previous Lodi incidents-- Guy was wrong. Guy got charged by a regulating agency. You continue to cry foul. I just don't get it. Tell me something, if you blatantly ran a red light and just paid the fine/ticket instead of going to court, would you feel you were robbed your due process? Would you say the local authorities acted too heavy and swift? Or that they shouldn't be up in your business fining you at all?

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[Bolas 5]

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Tell me something, if you blatantly ran a red light and just paid the fine/ticket instead of going to court, would you feel you were robbed your due process? Would you say the local authorities acted too heavy and swift? Or that they shouldn't be up in your business fining you at all?

He'd have to record himself running red lights, the video go viral, and the police asked to comment. The FAA was blndsided by this so they had to do something.

While the TI royally fucked up, whomever allowed that video to go home with the customer fucked up too. She should have been told there were camera issues and either offered a free jump or her money for the video and/or the jump back.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[LyraM45 0]

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Tell me something, if you blatantly ran a red light and just paid the fine/ticket instead of going to court, would you feel you were robbed your due process? Would you say the local authorities acted too heavy and swift? Or that they shouldn't be up in your business fining you at all?

He'd have to record himself running red lights, the video go viral, and the police asked to comment. The FAA was blndsided by this so they had to do something.

While the TI royally fucked up, whomever allowed that video to go home with the customer fucked up too. She should have been told there were camera issues and either offered a free jump or her money for the video and/or the jump back.

Exactly!

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[robinheid 0]

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In Reply To
Where is the due process?

I may have missed it, do we know how he was notified. He should have been notified by Certified mail – Return receipt requested. It should state what his offence is and give him a date by which he needs to appeal.

Exactly. Robin is not the first person I've heard crying that there has not been due process in this.... and any other recent incidences where the FAA has been involved at Lodi for that matter. I am really sorry, but if you don't know anything about the process that happens when you are fined by the FAA, then don't say anything. Both in the aircraft fines AND this fine for the tandem instructor, everybody is given the same due process. You are notified, you have a date, and you can file for an appeal. You can request to appeal to a board.

What happened here is the instructor may not want to appeal to something he is obviously guilty of and has no chance in fighting. It's not worth the money or time. This is NOT the same of robbing him of his due process.


It's craziness to think that everybody is throwing this guy to the wolves. You held this same defensive position with regards to Bill when he screwed the pooch on the whole aircraft mx thing. I'm sorry, but if it looks like a turd, and smells like a turd, people aren't going to look the other way. Neither is the FAA. So don't make us or the FAA out to be the bad guys.

If you'll notice, the FAA did nothing until more than a year after the fact, after the video went viral.

Then it acted with great dispatch and a heavy hand, and you can snivel all you want about it, but this was due process in form but not substance, and specifically designed to set precedence by going after someone no one on our side is smart enough to defend on principle.

Please keep in mind the Euro weathermen who were recently arrested for not warning people sufficiently about a storm or something.

When judgment calls at this level become legally actionable by regulatory agencies that are answerable to no one, freedom has a big problem.

THAT is the focus of my comments, not 9th grade civics class debate points, but we can revisit this when you've been around a few more years.

44

The FAA probably didn't know about the incident until the video. I'm pretty sure Bill or any other employees from Lodi didn't give a courtesy 'just to let you know' call to the FAA after granny almost fell out of her harness. I'm sure if the FAA knew about it, they would have done something from the start; and I'm sure they still would have been 'quick and heavy' since Bill is already on their shit list from previous fines and allegations. Honestly, if the DZ hadn't 'polished a turd' (as somebody so eloquently put it in another thread a few months ago) by releasing the jump video, then the FAA still probably wouldn't know about it right now.

The rest of what you have stated is opinion. You feel 'in substance' that there was no due process. Well, good for you. Majority of folks will probably disagree. Point still stands, the employee has been afforded the same due process as anybody else fined by the FAA.

And I have no clue how you even equated this with the stuff that just happened with the scientists in Europe. And trust me, I should be the first to understand what you're trying to say because I'm a meteorologist and have been keeping a close eye on what happened to these scientists who were supposed to predict the ultimately unpredictable, like I do. You're really rambling and grasping here....which is something you'll still do if we talk down the road after I've had a few more years in (past the 11 I already have in) the sport.

Both in this incident and in previous Lodi incidents-- Guy was wrong. Guy got charged by a regulating agency. You continue to cry foul. I just don't get it. Tell me something, if you blatantly ran a red light and just paid the fine/ticket instead of going to court, would you feel you were robbed your due process? Would you say the local authorities acted too heavy and swift? Or that they shouldn't be up in your business fining you at all?

Considering the mountain of assumptions upon which you build your arguments, I sure wouldn't want to plan any outdoor activities based on your weather forecasts.

44

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[airtwardo 6]

While the TI royally fucked up, whomever allowed that video to go home with the customer fucked up too. She should have been told there were camera issues and either offered a free jump or her money for the video and/or the jump back.

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So even if there WAS video...it didn't happen?

While I understand what you're saying and why...what about the TI that fucked up?

Does hiding problems like that really help anyone in the long run?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Bolas 5]

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While the TI royally fucked up, whomever allowed that video to go home with the customer fucked up too. She should have been told there were camera issues and either offered a free jump or her money for the video and/or the jump back.

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So even if there WAS video...it's didn't happen?

While I understand what you're saying and why...what about the TI that fucked up?

Does hiding problems like that really help anyone in the long run?

I'm not saying to hide it. The video has great value internally as a teaching aid as well as shows the resiliency of the tandem system. Were the gear manufacturer and/or the DZO to take action to discipline or reeducate the TI, maybe show it to the FAA as an example of us self policing..

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[LyraM45 0]

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Considering the mountain of assumptions upon which you build your arguments, I sure wouldn't want to plan any outdoor activities based on your weather forecasts.

Funny....considering weather is in imperfect science and we have to make assumptions more often then you'd think. You see, there it is again.... that whole talking about something you know nothing about. I thought I mentioned something about that earlier?

You should leave this to us aviation (and weather) professionals. Really.


Let's discuss what assumptions I've made surrounding this case. Seems pretty cut and dry FACTS to me. Again, guy screwed up. Guy got fined by regulating agency. ....seems like an awful lot of assumptions to me!

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[robinheid 0]

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While the TI royally fucked up, whomever allowed that video to go home with the customer fucked up too. She should have been told there were camera issues and either offered a free jump or her money for the video and/or the jump back.

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So even if there WAS video...it's didn't happen?

While I understand what you're saying and why...what about the TI that fucked up?

Does hiding problems like that really help anyone in
the long run?

+1


For all the holier-than-thous out there, this sort of thing is NOT a one-off. I've gotten repeated feedback from TIs and camera people since this video aired that can be summarized as:

"I've seen worse."

The thing is, the cameras always malfunctioned after these jumps, just as the footage was being transferred to a customer video/DVD.

Which is a critical point: We have as an industry swept this under the rug for far too long; the assembly line factory tandem operation is widespread throughout the country and to stick our heads somewhere dark and blame it all on Bill and his TI is to perpetuate the fundamental problem: a "one-track" tandem system when what we need is a two-track" system that differentiates from the check-in counter on between "in spec" and "out of spec" students, to wit: those of normal age, weight, body shape and infirmities (none); and those who fall outside of "normal" for any of those criteria.

In the case in question, the customer was way out of spec for each criterion, yet she was placed in the normal student flow, and the TI "tried to make it work" instead of cutting away from that student immediately and putting her in an "out of spec" traffic flow, where she belonged.

If you examine the incident, you will find the standard 5 or 6 elements that added up to what should have been a fatallity except for the TI's (and customer's!) never-ever-give-up attitude and actions after everything went south:

Just putting her out of an Otter instead of a King Air would have changed it all.

Or adding the Y-strap.

Or giving the TI extra time to fit the harness to that squishy body.

Or going out last instead of first.

All of which could have occured if she had been placed -- from the checkin counter on -- in the "out of spec" process flow.

So, you know, maybe it is a good thing the FAA got involved because maybe it will make people take Samuel Jackson's advice and wake the eff up and realize we have to reorganize our assembly line practices before the FAA does indeed shut down all the factories.

44

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[Bolas 5]

Totally agree. We need to stop the "one process one price for all" mentality. Some passengers are going to need more attention/time to properly accommodate so they should pay more and TI's should be paid more so to compensate for the extra time.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[matthewcline 0]

"I've seen worse" and then the camera mal.

Problem, no one used those events to teach PROPER Harness adjustments, or have the T-I learn from the event.

No one focused on the issue of complacent Instructors, DZGM'a and DZO's. Instead it became a web "rumor" and bonfire gossip.

The good from this event, we the skydiving industry is openly discussing how not to let this become the norm (mostly).

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[airtwardo 6]

Which is a critical point: We have as an industry swept this under the rug for far too long; the assembly line factory tandem operation is widespread throughout the country and to stick our heads somewhere dark and blame it all on Bill and his TI is to perpetuate the fundamental problem: a "one-track" tandem system when what we need is a two-track" system that differentiates from the check-in counter on between "in spec" and "out of spec" students, to wit: those of normal age, weight, body shape and infirmities (none); and those who fall outside of "normal" for any of those criteria.

In the case in question, the customer was way out of spec for each criterion, yet she was placed in the normal student flow, and the TI "tried to make it work" instead of cutting away from that student immediately and putting her in an "out of spec" traffic flow, where she belonged.

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Sounds like a simple enough solution to me.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[Krip 2]

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Which is a critical point: We have as an industry swept this under the rug for far too long; the assembly line factory tandem operation is widespread throughout the country and to stick our heads somewhere dark and blame it all on Bill and his TI is to perpetuate the fundamental problem: a "one-track" tandem system when what we need is a two-track" system that differentiates from the check-in counter on between "in spec" and "out of spec" students, to wit: those of normal age, weight, body shape and infirmities (none); and those who fall outside of "normal" for any of those criteria.

In the case in question, the customer was way out of spec for each criterion, yet she was placed in the normal student flow, and the TI "tried to make it work" instead of cutting away from that student immediately and putting her in an "out of spec" traffic flow, where she belonged.

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Sounds like a simple enough solution to me.

Except

Cost to much $$$$$

One Jump Wonder

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