AggieDave 6 #76 October 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteLets mind our own house instead of having the FAA do it. Let's be responsible. Isn't self-regulation what USPA is supposed to have been doing all these years? Perhaps if USPA enforced the FAR's and BSR's instead of just suggesting it might be a good idea to follow them, the FAA wouldn't have felt it necessary to regulate the sport for us. Hmmm..... If DZOs would enforce them with their staff and then not push the safety standards to turn another load, then the USPA could continue to be a paper tiger with out much issue. If jumpers would take the time to stand up for what is right, then DZOs wouldn't get away with doing stupid things. If the jump pilots would stand up to both the jumpers and the DZO, then it would be a non-issue. It's obvious that the USPA gave up on the jumpers a long time ago, the pet project demo-team is a prime example of that, but it is up to the jumpers to not give up on the sport by doing what is right.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #77 October 9, 2012 Quote Isn't self-regulation what USPA is supposed to have been doing all these years? Yea, just try going to the USPA with documents, videos, and mountains of proof and see if you don't get thrown under the bus..... For years we have had BOD members who, not only knew much of the reported shit was going down and they willfully turned a blindeye and refused to take actions towards their "good old boys", it was more important to publish a bunch of fluffy feel good and do the right things stories in parashitty, but then play politics when it came time to bust some balls. Just take a look at some the current BOD who have been there for sometime, they have needed to go for some time now, yet morons keep voting them in. Thankfully in this run a few have stepped aside, while a few of the others remain. It's not like we don't have long serving BOD members who have been able to remember who they serve and I welcome them serving us again... but those are only few. Again if you want the industry to be self-regulation, then USPA needs to stop throwing those who step up, under the bus, but as long as we have those willing to look the other way serving on the BOD, things will continue as they have for years. If I were to ever drop a dime on any operators, the last fucking people in the world I would ever call or write too or inform of anything would be the USPA!you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #78 October 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteI know exactly what's gonna happen when I do a tandem...a nice stable exit and the drogue out in 3-5 seconds. That is what you call complacency. No it's not it's called (PPPPPP) prior planning to prevent piss poor performance. And if you do that, no need for a knee jerk reaction that lead to the Y strap. Ski's point was not lost on me, I support him. Your assumption about him, yeah you missed. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sky4meplease 0 #79 October 9, 2012 Quote I have started offering to sign off on instructors log books, like being signed off by a CFI, that said instructor has reviewed the material and satisfactorily shown competence in proper harness fitting. Signatures like that though you hope you never need them would be quite valuable.Overkill is under rated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sky4meplease 0 #80 October 9, 2012 The USPA are like hockey referee's. They want to let you play the game without calling too many penalties because that is what the players and the fans want. Unfortunately, things get out of hand from time to time and you wind up with a bench clearing brawl. Overkill is under rated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tonyhays 86 #81 October 9, 2012 QuoteUnfortunately, things get out of hand from time to time and you wind up with a bench clearing brawl. Not fitting a harness properly to a student I think would qualify! No students fell out of the old style harness....the ones without the lumbar strap and without the belly band!!!! Why should they fall out of the newer ones???? Instructor incompetence or massive complancency!!!! (<<--probably didn't spell that right!!!)“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tonyhays 86 #82 October 9, 2012 Quote But I also know sometimes the student gets the better of you even if you do everything right. The student may surprise you out the door....but You know how to fly better than any student!!! I have seen many a instructor not give themselves the chance to fix any issues and then throw the stabilizer!!I have also seen many instructors upside down, turn their heads at me, smile, throw a peace sign, then fix the instability and throw the drogue stable!!! YOU as a tandem-I have the experience...I think that is one part of the course that should be stressed more....you are in control....you rule this skydive!!!! Quote Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. A great philosophy no matter what rating you have!!!“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #83 October 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteLets mind our own house instead of having the FAA do it. Let's be responsible. Isn't self-regulation what USPA is supposed to have been doing all these years? Perhaps if USPA enforced the FAR's and BSR's instead of just suggesting it might be a good idea to follow them, the FAA wouldn't have felt it necessary to regulate the sport for us. Hmmm..... If DZOs would enforce them with their staff and then not push the safety standards to turn another load, then the USPA could continue to be a paper tiger with out much issue. If jumpers would take the time to stand up for what is right, then DZOs wouldn't get away with doing stupid things. If the jump pilots would stand up to both the jumpers and the DZO, then it would be a non-issue. It's obvious that the USPA gave up on the jumpers a long time ago, the pet project demo-team is a prime example of that, but it is up to the jumpers to not give up on the sport by doing what is right. Here's a big part of the problem... The following was posted on a different thread - QuoteI'm in the middle of opening a new dz right now. I don't want to sound rude, but if the uspa is going to make it a rule that I can no longer teach people to fly wingsuits out of my airplane until spot or whoever says I can, I think I'll pass on the group membership. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #84 October 9, 2012 Quote Here's a big part of the problem... The following was posted on a different thread - QuoteI'm in the middle of opening a new dz right now. I don't want to sound rude, but if the uspa is going to make it a rule that I can no longer teach people to fly wingsuits out of my airplane until spot or whoever says I can, I think I'll pass on the group membership. No I don't think that is the problem, and it is a poor comparison because all of the individuals giving tandem rating courses hold endorsements from USPA and one of the manufacturers. Examiner ratings and endorsements don't ensure performance on rating courses anymore than a tandem instructor rating magically adjusts a harness. Your wing-suit example is perfect proof of this. The DZO you quoted could skip the group membership and offer stellar first wing-suit flight courses, but not be rated. Down the road a USPA rated instructor could be giving shit first flight courses."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #85 October 9, 2012 Quote No students fell out of the old style harness....the ones without the lumbar strap and without the belly band!!!! Why should they fall out of the newer ones???? Instructor incompetence or massive complancency!!!! (<<--probably didn't spell that right!!!) Lets start a list of probable causes: 1. Promotion of tandem skydiving as an amusement park ride with little risk, for all ages and body types. 2. Tandem skydiving being a cash cow giving rise to DZ's that are tandem factories. 3. DZO's that would rather fire their instructors than let them refuse a student over safety concern. 4. DZO's that run operations where TI's are running to the plane to meet their student on route, with little prior interaction with their actual instructor, and certainly no time for their actual instructor to adjust their harness before rushing into the turbine. We keep going around and around about the Y-mod, when in my opinion the real problem with the industry is a profit motive that places cash in higher importance than safety. To the best of my knowledge there are only two students in the US who have fallen out of their harness on deployment, one was disabled student, and one was a heavier female with a poorly adjusted harness. We can add grandma to the list as a partial, an elderly student with a poorly adjusted harness. Where is the trend of healthy students falling out of properly adjusted tandem harnesses? Y mods on every harness in operation would be great, but it would be a small improvement in safety, but I am not against it. The following improvements would have a much better impact on tandem safety than Y mods on every tandem harness in operation: 1. Back to basics, your tandem rating course. Check the harness three times. At gear up, before boarding, before the aircraft door opens. 2. Give your instructors time to train and harness their ACTUAL student. If there isn't enough time for that you don't have enough instructors. Instructors you are going to have to jump a little less, and spend more time training. 3. Refuse overweight tandems and elderly tandems that have a poor level of fitness. Do this at manifest. 3. Give your instructors the authority to refuse a student over safety concerns without retaliation from the DZO. 4. Give your instructors a time out if their aren't checking the harness three times, aren't doing handle checks, or if they are dicking around on the skydive."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #86 October 9, 2012 QuoteThe DZO you quoted could skip the group membership and offer stellar first wing-suit flight courses, but not be rated. Assuming that training by a rated instructor is included in the BSR's (no need to create a program if it isn't going to be "mandatory"), the dzo would be in violation of that BSR by doing so. This is the attitude that is the problem - yeah it's a rule but I'm special so I'm not going to follow it. Add in the fact that USPA doesn't do a damn thing about BSR or FAR violations and we get the FAA stepping in to do the job that we are obviously incapable of doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #87 October 9, 2012 The following improvements would have a much better impact on tandem safety than Y mods on every tandem harness in operation: 1. Back to basics, your tandem rating course. Check the harness three times. At gear up, before boarding, before the aircraft door opens. 2. Give your instructors time to train and harness their ACTUAL student. If there isn't enough time for that you don't have enough instructors. Instructors you are going to have to jump a little less, and spend more time training. 3. Refuse overweight tandems and elderly tandems that have a poor level of fitness. Do this at manifest. 3. Give your instructors the authority to refuse a student over safety concerns without retaliation from the DZO. 4. Give your instructors a time out if their aren't checking the harness three times, aren't doing handle checks, or if they are dicking around on the skydive. Quote All excellent points that no doubt would be quite effective in a perfect world. Unfortunately in our imperfect world as you also pointed out, profit$ 'at some times, with some people, at some places' are higher on the priority list. Not sayin' it's right, necessary or acceptable, but it IS undeniable. Therefore in order to address circumstances in which the performance standards have been lowered to a point where even the logically 'unacceptable' is overlooked ~ the design of the systems will IMO continue to change, so that the loss of life & serious injury toll remains justifiable to the Feds & marketable to potential customers. The tandem system 'was' considered to be 'by design' damn near idiot proof...then we got better idiots! I remember being at a PIA convention shortly following the 2nd fatality, one of the tandem system's original designers, who was equally upset & amazed it happen again... said to me ~ "One more of these in the next 90 days & kiss ALL tandem jumping goodbye, mark my words." I don't envy the manufactures, it's a vicious circle...no matter how tight they make the hardware~ somewhere, somebody at some time slips proper procedure and nothing is gained. Also to mention: I was watching the local Houston news last light and the granny vid was played again with a story about the FAA fine. ...dunno if it was a 'local' interviewer or stock footage but the news cast also showed granny commenting that she didn't think the fine was fair or deserved...that you - go into it knowing 'anything can happen' and that the TI 'saved her life'. No hard feelings, the young man called her at home afterward to make sure she was alright, and 'they' even went out to lunch. Woulda loved to seen that ~ Two 'out to lunch' people, who were out havin' lunch together. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NSEMN8R 0 #88 October 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteThe DZO you quoted could skip the group membership and offer stellar first wing-suit flight courses, but not be rated. Assuming that training by a rated instructor is included in the BSR's (no need to create a program if it isn't going to be "mandatory"), the dzo would be in violation of that BSR by doing so. This is the attitude that is the problem - yeah it's a rule but I'm special so I'm not going to follow it. Add in the fact that USPA doesn't do a damn thing about BSR or FAR violations and we get the FAA stepping in to do the job that we are obviously incapable of doing. You couldn't be more wrong about my attitude skybytch. The statement you quoted has nothing to do with tandems. There's a huge difference between student operations and their attempt to further regulate experienced jumpers. When it comes to student operations we will follow all FAR's BSR's and the manufacturer's rules whether we're a GM dz or not. These rules make sense. They are there for safety, not to inflate egos and pockets. For what it's worth, my tandem gear will be adjusted properly AND have a Y-mod. Also, I doubt the USPA is going to make a BSR censoring I's and prohibiting them from talking about wingsuiting without the blessing of one of their 7 examiners. An instructor can share whatever knowlededge he wants with whomever he wants. If anyone in that hypothetical situation would be busting a bsr it would be the student, wouldn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crashtested 0 #89 October 10, 2012 I just looked back at the video, couple of observations The harness is set very low, way below the hips, which makes the belly band more of a Vagina band. The leg straps which should be touching the Groin / covering hips bones (more so on fat and old people) are around the thighs The CHEST strap, is around her navel area, should have been adjusted upwards. The back band due to the lower setting of her leg strapswould have then been hanging around the bottom of her buttocks rather than above her butt, and unless it was realy really tight, you only have to get one saggy buttock over that band and your OAP, will start to slide out. I looked at the approach to the plane, and the harness looked slighty better, but was still far to low, also there's a strap hanging loose, but i presume that is from her hip connectors rather than a loose back band. YOu'll also notice the TM is distracted taking her walking stick away to give to Ground staff rather than checking the harness, possibly!! But regardless of whether the instructor checked the harness again or not, I doubt he would have adjusted it, as this is how he has been taught, and how he has made 1000's of other jumps, Presumably. The over the top exit, is pretty dumb, even with a well adjusted harness, but the loosness of the whole thing is evident when he is able to stand up whilst she is sat down, when in the door, but once again if you get away with it over 1000's of jumps, than why why you change what your doing?? Any Instructor who has jumped in the same plane as this guy, or cso, or the person who issue his rating, are as much at fault as he is. if you don't speak out, than people won't change. skydivers don't like criticism, constructive or not, but dumb stuff like this will happen.. if YOU let it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #90 October 10, 2012 Quote Leaving out disabled tandems who certainly need one, the y-mod is designed for lazy instructors, and out of shape pear shaped students. No one has ever fallen from a properly adjusted harness. I have a lot of respect for your opinions. But there are a lot of generously sized booties out there today and I like having the Y-strap for them. I took a Rubenesque young women just this weekend and used the Y-strap for my piece of mind. My hyper flexible wife Vskydiver fell out of her own harness after a hard opening, literally hanging by her knees from her legstraps at 2500 feet. She climbed back up into her harness to survive. She will NOT jump a rig without a cross connector between the leg straps. And, no, she's not fat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #91 October 10, 2012 QuoteThese rules make sense. They are there for safety, not to inflate egos and pockets. They make sense to you (and me). They don't make sense to others. Just like the proposed wingsuit stuff doesn't make sense to you (or me, for that matter, but I wouldn't ignore it if it becomes a BSR). As a DZO, slavishly following the BSR's and FAR's with your students and experienced jumpers on your dz could be a good defense against a lawsuit. The BSR's are the "blueprint" for safety in the sport - the "industry standard" so to speak. Abiding by one section while blatantly refusing to abide by another would make that potential defense unusable. And it sends the wrong message to the new skydivers you are growing - the message that what USPA says can be ignored if you don't agree with it. Quote If anyone in that hypothetical situation would be busting a bsr it would be the student, wouldn't it? Anyone can share whatever "knowledge" they have with whoever they would like. I can talk to people with two jumps about AFF even though my rating is expired. I just can't go jump with them. If I do, I'm in the wrong. If the dzo asks me to knowing that I don't have a rating, they are in the wrong as well. The student likely doesn't know enough to ask - and if the dz advertises "USPA rated instructors" that is what they are expecting. The way I read what you are saying, it's the student's fault if s/he is jumping with an unrated instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #92 October 10, 2012 Can we please move the wingsuit discussion, which frankly in my opinion has nothing to do with tandem instruction, to another discussion."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sky4meplease 0 #93 October 10, 2012 My hyper flexible wife Vskydiver fell out of her own harness after a hard opening, literally hanging by her knees from her legstraps at 2500 feet. She climbed back up into her harness to survive. She will NOT jump a rig without a cross connector between the leg straps. WELL... you had better teach her to properly adjust her harness then because there is NO way she could slip out of one otherwise. Overkill is under rated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #94 October 10, 2012 QuoteWELL... you had better teach her to properly adjust her harness then because there is NO way she could slip out of one otherwise. That is not true so stop spreading around a bunch of bullshit and passing it off as factual.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #95 October 10, 2012 Quote Quote WELL... you had better teach her to properly adjust her harness then because there is NO way she could slip out of one otherwise. That is not true so stop spreading around a bunch of bullshit and passing it off as factual. I'll 2nd that! ~ginin' the benefit of doubt, I hope he was being sarcastic...but in truth, it CAN happen! The first jump on my then brand new custom rig, which I'd flown to Fla and been fitted at the factory for ~ damn near came off on the solo orientation jump doing a back-loop! Legstraps caught on the backs of my knees & MLW's at the lower rings stopped on my elbows...Scared the SHIT outta me...and I ain't afraid of NUTHIN'!! Not only did I put a big ole bungee on it, I have an extra in my gear bag, NEVER jumpin' without one again! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sky4meplease 0 #96 October 10, 2012 QuoteThat is not true so stop spreading around a bunch of bullshit and passing it off as factual. I have no reason not to believe John Mitchell and his hyper flexible wife's story. Actually with my experience in life and skydiving I find that story quite believable. That's what happens when you see things in color as opposed to black and white. My comment about his story though sarcastic (sorry) was directed toward those who have replied to this thread that believe it's not possible to come out of a properly adjusted harness. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean that it can't.Overkill is under rated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #97 October 10, 2012 Quote sarcastic (sorry) Thanks clearing that up,There are a lot of mid-informed low timers who do believe it is not possible to fall out, so as an Instructor this is an issue of great concern to me, regardless if it is a TDM or AFF, S/L, IAD or just a solo fun jumper. We have lost a few solo jumpers over the years due to the hole. I don't think this something to joke about or continue to perpetuate mis leading info that has been around for sometime, others paid a high price for all to learn! That is why I replied as I did.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #98 October 10, 2012 Quote That is why I replied as I did. Oh what do you know? Your profile says you only have one jump.That was sarcasm, that was sarcasm! Thanks for the backup, you and Twardo, on the harness thing. People just don't want to believe it can happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites theonlyski 3 #99 October 10, 2012 Quote Quote That is why I replied as I did. Oh what do you know? Your profile says you only have one jump.That was sarcasm, that was sarcasm! Thanks for the backup, you and Twardo, on the harness thing. People just don't want to believe it can happen. I've been unsuccessful trying to find it, but I remember seeing pictures/video of a girl demonstrating how even a proper harness can be 'fallen out of'."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Southern_Man 0 #100 October 10, 2012 Quote I've been unsuccessful trying to find it, but I remember seeing pictures/video of a girl demonstrating how even a proper harness can be 'fallen out of'. Not quite what you are looking for but here is a repost of a Jan Meyer article on the "hole" for those who haven't seen it. http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/fallout.html"What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 4 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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sky4meplease 0 #79 October 9, 2012 Quote I have started offering to sign off on instructors log books, like being signed off by a CFI, that said instructor has reviewed the material and satisfactorily shown competence in proper harness fitting. Signatures like that though you hope you never need them would be quite valuable.Overkill is under rated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sky4meplease 0 #80 October 9, 2012 The USPA are like hockey referee's. They want to let you play the game without calling too many penalties because that is what the players and the fans want. Unfortunately, things get out of hand from time to time and you wind up with a bench clearing brawl. Overkill is under rated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyhays 86 #81 October 9, 2012 QuoteUnfortunately, things get out of hand from time to time and you wind up with a bench clearing brawl. Not fitting a harness properly to a student I think would qualify! No students fell out of the old style harness....the ones without the lumbar strap and without the belly band!!!! Why should they fall out of the newer ones???? Instructor incompetence or massive complancency!!!! (<<--probably didn't spell that right!!!)“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyhays 86 #82 October 9, 2012 Quote But I also know sometimes the student gets the better of you even if you do everything right. The student may surprise you out the door....but You know how to fly better than any student!!! I have seen many a instructor not give themselves the chance to fix any issues and then throw the stabilizer!!I have also seen many instructors upside down, turn their heads at me, smile, throw a peace sign, then fix the instability and throw the drogue stable!!! YOU as a tandem-I have the experience...I think that is one part of the course that should be stressed more....you are in control....you rule this skydive!!!! Quote Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. A great philosophy no matter what rating you have!!!“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #83 October 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteLets mind our own house instead of having the FAA do it. Let's be responsible. Isn't self-regulation what USPA is supposed to have been doing all these years? Perhaps if USPA enforced the FAR's and BSR's instead of just suggesting it might be a good idea to follow them, the FAA wouldn't have felt it necessary to regulate the sport for us. Hmmm..... If DZOs would enforce them with their staff and then not push the safety standards to turn another load, then the USPA could continue to be a paper tiger with out much issue. If jumpers would take the time to stand up for what is right, then DZOs wouldn't get away with doing stupid things. If the jump pilots would stand up to both the jumpers and the DZO, then it would be a non-issue. It's obvious that the USPA gave up on the jumpers a long time ago, the pet project demo-team is a prime example of that, but it is up to the jumpers to not give up on the sport by doing what is right. Here's a big part of the problem... The following was posted on a different thread - QuoteI'm in the middle of opening a new dz right now. I don't want to sound rude, but if the uspa is going to make it a rule that I can no longer teach people to fly wingsuits out of my airplane until spot or whoever says I can, I think I'll pass on the group membership. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #84 October 9, 2012 Quote Here's a big part of the problem... The following was posted on a different thread - QuoteI'm in the middle of opening a new dz right now. I don't want to sound rude, but if the uspa is going to make it a rule that I can no longer teach people to fly wingsuits out of my airplane until spot or whoever says I can, I think I'll pass on the group membership. No I don't think that is the problem, and it is a poor comparison because all of the individuals giving tandem rating courses hold endorsements from USPA and one of the manufacturers. Examiner ratings and endorsements don't ensure performance on rating courses anymore than a tandem instructor rating magically adjusts a harness. Your wing-suit example is perfect proof of this. The DZO you quoted could skip the group membership and offer stellar first wing-suit flight courses, but not be rated. Down the road a USPA rated instructor could be giving shit first flight courses."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #85 October 9, 2012 Quote No students fell out of the old style harness....the ones without the lumbar strap and without the belly band!!!! Why should they fall out of the newer ones???? Instructor incompetence or massive complancency!!!! (<<--probably didn't spell that right!!!) Lets start a list of probable causes: 1. Promotion of tandem skydiving as an amusement park ride with little risk, for all ages and body types. 2. Tandem skydiving being a cash cow giving rise to DZ's that are tandem factories. 3. DZO's that would rather fire their instructors than let them refuse a student over safety concern. 4. DZO's that run operations where TI's are running to the plane to meet their student on route, with little prior interaction with their actual instructor, and certainly no time for their actual instructor to adjust their harness before rushing into the turbine. We keep going around and around about the Y-mod, when in my opinion the real problem with the industry is a profit motive that places cash in higher importance than safety. To the best of my knowledge there are only two students in the US who have fallen out of their harness on deployment, one was disabled student, and one was a heavier female with a poorly adjusted harness. We can add grandma to the list as a partial, an elderly student with a poorly adjusted harness. Where is the trend of healthy students falling out of properly adjusted tandem harnesses? Y mods on every harness in operation would be great, but it would be a small improvement in safety, but I am not against it. The following improvements would have a much better impact on tandem safety than Y mods on every tandem harness in operation: 1. Back to basics, your tandem rating course. Check the harness three times. At gear up, before boarding, before the aircraft door opens. 2. Give your instructors time to train and harness their ACTUAL student. If there isn't enough time for that you don't have enough instructors. Instructors you are going to have to jump a little less, and spend more time training. 3. Refuse overweight tandems and elderly tandems that have a poor level of fitness. Do this at manifest. 3. Give your instructors the authority to refuse a student over safety concerns without retaliation from the DZO. 4. Give your instructors a time out if their aren't checking the harness three times, aren't doing handle checks, or if they are dicking around on the skydive."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #86 October 9, 2012 QuoteThe DZO you quoted could skip the group membership and offer stellar first wing-suit flight courses, but not be rated. Assuming that training by a rated instructor is included in the BSR's (no need to create a program if it isn't going to be "mandatory"), the dzo would be in violation of that BSR by doing so. This is the attitude that is the problem - yeah it's a rule but I'm special so I'm not going to follow it. Add in the fact that USPA doesn't do a damn thing about BSR or FAR violations and we get the FAA stepping in to do the job that we are obviously incapable of doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #87 October 9, 2012 The following improvements would have a much better impact on tandem safety than Y mods on every tandem harness in operation: 1. Back to basics, your tandem rating course. Check the harness three times. At gear up, before boarding, before the aircraft door opens. 2. Give your instructors time to train and harness their ACTUAL student. If there isn't enough time for that you don't have enough instructors. Instructors you are going to have to jump a little less, and spend more time training. 3. Refuse overweight tandems and elderly tandems that have a poor level of fitness. Do this at manifest. 3. Give your instructors the authority to refuse a student over safety concerns without retaliation from the DZO. 4. Give your instructors a time out if their aren't checking the harness three times, aren't doing handle checks, or if they are dicking around on the skydive. Quote All excellent points that no doubt would be quite effective in a perfect world. Unfortunately in our imperfect world as you also pointed out, profit$ 'at some times, with some people, at some places' are higher on the priority list. Not sayin' it's right, necessary or acceptable, but it IS undeniable. Therefore in order to address circumstances in which the performance standards have been lowered to a point where even the logically 'unacceptable' is overlooked ~ the design of the systems will IMO continue to change, so that the loss of life & serious injury toll remains justifiable to the Feds & marketable to potential customers. The tandem system 'was' considered to be 'by design' damn near idiot proof...then we got better idiots! I remember being at a PIA convention shortly following the 2nd fatality, one of the tandem system's original designers, who was equally upset & amazed it happen again... said to me ~ "One more of these in the next 90 days & kiss ALL tandem jumping goodbye, mark my words." I don't envy the manufactures, it's a vicious circle...no matter how tight they make the hardware~ somewhere, somebody at some time slips proper procedure and nothing is gained. Also to mention: I was watching the local Houston news last light and the granny vid was played again with a story about the FAA fine. ...dunno if it was a 'local' interviewer or stock footage but the news cast also showed granny commenting that she didn't think the fine was fair or deserved...that you - go into it knowing 'anything can happen' and that the TI 'saved her life'. No hard feelings, the young man called her at home afterward to make sure she was alright, and 'they' even went out to lunch. Woulda loved to seen that ~ Two 'out to lunch' people, who were out havin' lunch together. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NSEMN8R 0 #88 October 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteThe DZO you quoted could skip the group membership and offer stellar first wing-suit flight courses, but not be rated. Assuming that training by a rated instructor is included in the BSR's (no need to create a program if it isn't going to be "mandatory"), the dzo would be in violation of that BSR by doing so. This is the attitude that is the problem - yeah it's a rule but I'm special so I'm not going to follow it. Add in the fact that USPA doesn't do a damn thing about BSR or FAR violations and we get the FAA stepping in to do the job that we are obviously incapable of doing. You couldn't be more wrong about my attitude skybytch. The statement you quoted has nothing to do with tandems. There's a huge difference between student operations and their attempt to further regulate experienced jumpers. When it comes to student operations we will follow all FAR's BSR's and the manufacturer's rules whether we're a GM dz or not. These rules make sense. They are there for safety, not to inflate egos and pockets. For what it's worth, my tandem gear will be adjusted properly AND have a Y-mod. Also, I doubt the USPA is going to make a BSR censoring I's and prohibiting them from talking about wingsuiting without the blessing of one of their 7 examiners. An instructor can share whatever knowlededge he wants with whomever he wants. If anyone in that hypothetical situation would be busting a bsr it would be the student, wouldn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #89 October 10, 2012 I just looked back at the video, couple of observations The harness is set very low, way below the hips, which makes the belly band more of a Vagina band. The leg straps which should be touching the Groin / covering hips bones (more so on fat and old people) are around the thighs The CHEST strap, is around her navel area, should have been adjusted upwards. The back band due to the lower setting of her leg strapswould have then been hanging around the bottom of her buttocks rather than above her butt, and unless it was realy really tight, you only have to get one saggy buttock over that band and your OAP, will start to slide out. I looked at the approach to the plane, and the harness looked slighty better, but was still far to low, also there's a strap hanging loose, but i presume that is from her hip connectors rather than a loose back band. YOu'll also notice the TM is distracted taking her walking stick away to give to Ground staff rather than checking the harness, possibly!! But regardless of whether the instructor checked the harness again or not, I doubt he would have adjusted it, as this is how he has been taught, and how he has made 1000's of other jumps, Presumably. The over the top exit, is pretty dumb, even with a well adjusted harness, but the loosness of the whole thing is evident when he is able to stand up whilst she is sat down, when in the door, but once again if you get away with it over 1000's of jumps, than why why you change what your doing?? Any Instructor who has jumped in the same plane as this guy, or cso, or the person who issue his rating, are as much at fault as he is. if you don't speak out, than people won't change. skydivers don't like criticism, constructive or not, but dumb stuff like this will happen.. if YOU let it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #90 October 10, 2012 Quote Leaving out disabled tandems who certainly need one, the y-mod is designed for lazy instructors, and out of shape pear shaped students. No one has ever fallen from a properly adjusted harness. I have a lot of respect for your opinions. But there are a lot of generously sized booties out there today and I like having the Y-strap for them. I took a Rubenesque young women just this weekend and used the Y-strap for my piece of mind. My hyper flexible wife Vskydiver fell out of her own harness after a hard opening, literally hanging by her knees from her legstraps at 2500 feet. She climbed back up into her harness to survive. She will NOT jump a rig without a cross connector between the leg straps. And, no, she's not fat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #91 October 10, 2012 QuoteThese rules make sense. They are there for safety, not to inflate egos and pockets. They make sense to you (and me). They don't make sense to others. Just like the proposed wingsuit stuff doesn't make sense to you (or me, for that matter, but I wouldn't ignore it if it becomes a BSR). As a DZO, slavishly following the BSR's and FAR's with your students and experienced jumpers on your dz could be a good defense against a lawsuit. The BSR's are the "blueprint" for safety in the sport - the "industry standard" so to speak. Abiding by one section while blatantly refusing to abide by another would make that potential defense unusable. And it sends the wrong message to the new skydivers you are growing - the message that what USPA says can be ignored if you don't agree with it. Quote If anyone in that hypothetical situation would be busting a bsr it would be the student, wouldn't it? Anyone can share whatever "knowledge" they have with whoever they would like. I can talk to people with two jumps about AFF even though my rating is expired. I just can't go jump with them. If I do, I'm in the wrong. If the dzo asks me to knowing that I don't have a rating, they are in the wrong as well. The student likely doesn't know enough to ask - and if the dz advertises "USPA rated instructors" that is what they are expecting. The way I read what you are saying, it's the student's fault if s/he is jumping with an unrated instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #92 October 10, 2012 Can we please move the wingsuit discussion, which frankly in my opinion has nothing to do with tandem instruction, to another discussion."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sky4meplease 0 #93 October 10, 2012 My hyper flexible wife Vskydiver fell out of her own harness after a hard opening, literally hanging by her knees from her legstraps at 2500 feet. She climbed back up into her harness to survive. She will NOT jump a rig without a cross connector between the leg straps. WELL... you had better teach her to properly adjust her harness then because there is NO way she could slip out of one otherwise. Overkill is under rated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #94 October 10, 2012 QuoteWELL... you had better teach her to properly adjust her harness then because there is NO way she could slip out of one otherwise. That is not true so stop spreading around a bunch of bullshit and passing it off as factual.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #95 October 10, 2012 Quote Quote WELL... you had better teach her to properly adjust her harness then because there is NO way she could slip out of one otherwise. That is not true so stop spreading around a bunch of bullshit and passing it off as factual. I'll 2nd that! ~ginin' the benefit of doubt, I hope he was being sarcastic...but in truth, it CAN happen! The first jump on my then brand new custom rig, which I'd flown to Fla and been fitted at the factory for ~ damn near came off on the solo orientation jump doing a back-loop! Legstraps caught on the backs of my knees & MLW's at the lower rings stopped on my elbows...Scared the SHIT outta me...and I ain't afraid of NUTHIN'!! Not only did I put a big ole bungee on it, I have an extra in my gear bag, NEVER jumpin' without one again! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sky4meplease 0 #96 October 10, 2012 QuoteThat is not true so stop spreading around a bunch of bullshit and passing it off as factual. I have no reason not to believe John Mitchell and his hyper flexible wife's story. Actually with my experience in life and skydiving I find that story quite believable. That's what happens when you see things in color as opposed to black and white. My comment about his story though sarcastic (sorry) was directed toward those who have replied to this thread that believe it's not possible to come out of a properly adjusted harness. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean that it can't.Overkill is under rated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #97 October 10, 2012 Quote sarcastic (sorry) Thanks clearing that up,There are a lot of mid-informed low timers who do believe it is not possible to fall out, so as an Instructor this is an issue of great concern to me, regardless if it is a TDM or AFF, S/L, IAD or just a solo fun jumper. We have lost a few solo jumpers over the years due to the hole. I don't think this something to joke about or continue to perpetuate mis leading info that has been around for sometime, others paid a high price for all to learn! That is why I replied as I did.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #98 October 10, 2012 Quote That is why I replied as I did. Oh what do you know? Your profile says you only have one jump.That was sarcasm, that was sarcasm! Thanks for the backup, you and Twardo, on the harness thing. People just don't want to believe it can happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #99 October 10, 2012 Quote Quote That is why I replied as I did. Oh what do you know? Your profile says you only have one jump.That was sarcasm, that was sarcasm! Thanks for the backup, you and Twardo, on the harness thing. People just don't want to believe it can happen. I've been unsuccessful trying to find it, but I remember seeing pictures/video of a girl demonstrating how even a proper harness can be 'fallen out of'."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #100 October 10, 2012 Quote I've been unsuccessful trying to find it, but I remember seeing pictures/video of a girl demonstrating how even a proper harness can be 'fallen out of'. Not quite what you are looking for but here is a repost of a Jan Meyer article on the "hole" for those who haven't seen it. http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/fallout.html"What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
