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stratostar

Skydiving employee fined by FAA

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I'm sorry if "my opinion" of this near incident is offensive but it is what it is. An opinion.

Where I hang my hat I jump with the young, the old, big, small, sick, disabled and the scared.

You don't have to be able to do pull ups, be under two hundred pounds or look a certain way for me to introduce you to the greatest sport in the world.

I can't do my job as an instructor without the proper gear and in my opinion a majority of my tandems are not safe without the y strap.

I still think Grandmas harness looked ok until she pushed back against her tandem instructor in the door of the a/c sliding her leg straps up toward her knees. Should the tandem instructor have stopped the jump? Probably. Was it worth fining him $2,200.00....apparently the FAA thinks so.

Just an opinion and for what it's worth I think Ive earned my tandem rating and I am proud of what I have done for this sport.
Overkill is under rated.

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I still think Grandmas harness looked ok.....



You should revisit the video, specifically the few seconds near the fuel tanks while waiting for the aircraft to load. It is most certainly NOT properly adjusted in that video.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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In my opinion every tandem harness needs a y strap and if we don't self regulate the FAA will regulate for us.



My personal tandem harness doesn't have a Y-strap and I have managed to not drop anyone...

For the most part you seem a reasonable, intelligent guy Robert. Are you seriously going to stand by that statement as a reason to not get the "Y mod":|


If you adjust the harness correctly and don't cave to the pressure to take body types that should NOT be going skydiving them you never need the y-mod.

Leaving out disabled tandems who certainly need one, the y-mod is designed for lazy instructors, and out of shape pear shaped students. No one has ever fallen from a properly adjusted harness.


Lawyer: Are you aware of the Y mod and how it works?
DZO: Yes
Lawyer: Do you think a Y mod would have prevented the deceased from falling from the harness?
DZO: Yes but it's not my fault because the TI didn't adjust the harness properly!!

How do you think the jury would see that? :P
2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

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But why not? It is really cheap insurance. (a lot cheaper than a BRS!)

Niner & Squeak, do you have a Y strap on your solo rigs ?



Whats that got to do with tandem passenger harnesses?
2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

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But why not? It is really cheap insurance. (a lot cheaper than a BRS!)

Niner & Squeak, do you have a Y strap on your solo rigs ?



Whats that got to do with tandem passenger harnesses?

it is also very easy to fall out of a solo rig. I find it "funny" to have people who don't seem to have tandem ratings/rigging ratings give advice on tandem gear, when the same problem can arise on their own gear and do nothing about it...
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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But why not? It is really cheap insurance. (a lot cheaper than a BRS!)

Niner & Squeak, do you have a Y strap on your solo rigs ?


I do have a freefly mod to prevent my leg straps slipping. Also Im responsible for ME and my safety. I KNOW and understand the risks, and I accept them. Tandem passengers do not.

I have to say I am completely surprised by the attitude of some of you folks in regards to the Y mod. For something so easy to do, with obvious benefits and seemingly without down side. The apparent reluctance to the mod baffles me.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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I have nothing against the Y-strap, but it is not a reason to misrig a passenger.


Absolutely not, no one has implied that it is.
It's merely a mod to try and mitigate that possible outcome of falling out of the harness
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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Absolutely not, no one has implied that it is.
It's merely a mod to try and mitigate that possible outcome of falling out of the harness

Are there any downside for having the Y-strap? If not, it'd sound like a good way to mitigate a problem.

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Are there any downside for having the Y-strap? If not, it'd sound like a good way to mitigate a problem.



Yes, if the Y strap is snug or even close to snug, the student will have problems getting their legs up. When adjusting a Strong harness with the Y mod by the book atleast half of my students had issues getting their legs up.
IMHO, the Y mod is a bandaid fix for instructors that have either become complacent or that should just not have a tandem rating.
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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Suppose for a moment that not only was the y mod implemented for the lazy and or sloppy instructor who improperly geared his student but it also:

held a tandem passenger who had a heart attack or seizure in free fall and went limp.

prevented a tandem student from slipping out on a reserve deployment when body position is compromised.

kept a tandem pair together during an emergency aircraft exit where you might only have time for the uppers and leaving an unstable airplane.

It seems there are plenty of reasons to have this feature in place and the only reason not to is that if you properly adjust the harness there is no need for the y mod to begin with.
Overkill is under rated.

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You should revisit the video, specifically the few seconds near the fuel tanks while waiting for the aircraft to load. It is most certainly NOT properly adjusted in that video.



I will do that. I was referring to the seconds before they approached the door of the aircraft just prior to exit. I couldn't even see her leg straps because they rode so high on her thighs. At that point it looked to me like the leg straps were in the proper position.
Overkill is under rated.

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... y-mod. ... covering your ass. ...;)



.......................................................................\\Nice pun!

If you ever get dragged into court, the lawyer for the prosecution will fixate on your lack of y-mod and crucify you!

And I believe in "putting my ass where my sass is." The winter after Strong introduced its y-mod, I sewed them onto all dozen of our tandem student harnesses.

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I think USPA should poll the membership to see if they should create a structured system to train these people. Make desiginated Instructor Examiners and such to prevent this kind of incident.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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Oh you mean like a rating system, where honest people run the program and don't go around handing out ratings for a check, cash, cocaine, or blow jobs....... or any combo of the above and where life long drunks who have had their drivers license taken for life because they are a life long drunk, can go cry and whine to the USPA to get a waver to allow them to do TDM's, yet all the while those of us who maintain our driving rights and comply with the rules are forced to pay more to maintain our medicals, because you know, were REQUIRED to keep those fucking medicals, you know, because of all the drunks with DUI's......

You mean a system set up like that?
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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I used to think the Y-harness mods were a knee jerk reaction to stupidity, for a miniscule number of deaths compared to other human activities. Well, I still think that.

But after my ridiculously liability-conscious DZO introduced them, it sure makes me feel a hell of a lot better when I'm deploying with some fat-assed, limp-bodied student infront of me, even when I've cranked the leg straps deep into their flabby thighs. God some students are horrible, "it's like they've never skydived before".

So I really do like having those Y-straps on the Sigmas I jump, just in case.

(I like the way those Sigma Y-straps incorporate bungees, so the student can be restrained without stopping them from lifting their legs, as long as the strap isn't over tightened. Are Strongs like that? Too tight a Y strap can also pull the leg straps out of position while putting the harness on the student -- just a minor thing to watch for, to make sure the leg straps are properly positioned, and don't just appear tight because they're been yanked back by the Y-strap bungees.)

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I have nothing against the Y-strap, but it is not a reason to misrig a passenger.


Absolutely not, no one has implied that it is.
It's merely a mod to try and mitigate that possible outcome of falling out of the harness



According to the UPT Advisory which I believe stemmed from this issue, the harness HAD a Y-mod.

I watched the video a few times and could just barely make out what looked like the friction adapter just under the back pad, but I couldn't cleanly tell if it was that, the instructor MLW adjustment or one of the diagonals, but I think it was the Y-mod hardware.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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Interesting, not UPT rated and I never have seen that advisory from UPT. I would agree with you that the letter jives with the Lodi video. I have watched the video a few times now, but never see any Y strap. I'll have to go back a review again.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Looks about right for the placement for the hardware, don't think I've seen a SIGMA tandem rig with that sort of hardware (70101) for the MLW adjustment on the -I harness.

I believe the laterals were pulled too far down for them to be there, suppose it could be the horizontal back strap but the angle and exact location seems odd.

For what it's worth, I'm not against the Y-mod, I am against people inferring that I'm putting my students safety in risk by not having installed one in my rig yet.

ETA: I've watched the video a few more times, It looks like it may also be the reserve side MLW adjustment hardware... but again, I'm not sure, video is fuzzy and the UPT bulletin says the very similar sounding incident had the Y-mod.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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A couple of observations on this topic, not necessarily about the incident, but about the topic in general.

- One of the most critical and often overlooked components of tandem instructor training is the continuing education component of it. If you attend a rating course, any rating course, whether its tandem, coach, AFF, etc, the course, no matter how exceptional the examiner is, the course can be described as trying to take a sip of water from a fire hose. Massive amounts of vital information are passed on from teacher to candidate, and once the course has concluded, if you are able to show competence in the material and meet the standard to pass and earn the rating, it then becomes the new instructor's responsibility to continue to review and revisit the information post course, as long as they actively hold the rating. Obvisouly that doesnt always happen unfortunately, and as a result, 1) instructors start to forget some of that vital information they learned in the course, and 2) as time goes on, they begin to make subtle deviations from what they were originally taught, which over time, evolves into glaring deviations that still seem normal because they happened in small incriments over time. That is how these sort of things can occur to otherwise seemingly professional instructors that learned from the best in the business. We all know (USPA based) that every USPA instructor is supposed to attend a instructor safety seminar each year. Yet, how many of those that get signed off are held over a beer at dinner after safety day? For me, March is one of the busiest months of the year, as I trave to 4-5 DZs and hold specific tandem instructor refresher courses and training seminars, some are a couple of hours, some all day events. And its these types of seminars, reviews of manufacturer rules and regs, that are vital to ensuring that we keep from deviating from the manufacturer regs. I applaud UPT for putting together a tandem examiner standardization meeting at Skydive Expo for all systems, because the issue goes beyond just Sigma or Strong. Its an industry issue. So, as the 2012 season is coming to a close, I would encourage you to start planning an instructor safety seminar for your dropzone for your pre2013 season. I have some materials that I am happy to share with anyone that wants to hold such seminars, just email me at [email protected]

- Based on the above idea, I would also like to mention that there is a certain mind set out there that is starting to emerge occassionally, that suggests that if you were trained by certain examiners, one versus another, that you are exempt from the stupid things that occur out there. That its the other guys that are the problem. Obvisouly the training is only as good as the person providing it, but be careful in placing too much weight on the idea that since you were trained by A or B that you dont need a Y Strap because you wont make that mistake. History has already shown us that is not the case. We all want to have belief that if we hire a great examiner, that we too will in turn be great. Thats why we seek them out, its human nature. But its also important to remember that we are all capable of making mistakes, or use bad judgement, and its not typically because somone is an idiot, its usually a smart, professional instructor, who experiences a fatigue based lapse in judgement or misses something on a busy work day at the DZ. We can all say "well that shouldnt happen", but we all know that it can happen and does happen. even to the best of them out there.

No one, not even the guy involved in this event, sets out to allow themselves to lose control of a situation, but it happens. Ive seen alot of the videos and the photos, and its not always attributed the bad apples, it can be the all stars as well.

So, the best we can do as individuals and as an industry is continue to remember that tandem instrucction is a priviledge afford us by the FAA, the manufacturers and USPA. I call it the spider man principle. With great power comes great responsibility.

It is our collective responsibility to be diligent about continuing education and keep this stuff fresh in our heads. I can't tell you how many times a "pro" with thousands and thousands of tandems quoted a EP from Sigma for Strong and vice versa. It happens. Why? They haven't studied the EP tree since their course 5-10 years earlier. If every instructor that is active as a USPA instructor and/or examiner does not use this incident and subsequent fine, to make a concerted effort to pull out a student passenger harness fitting guiude and review the materials to ensure compliance, then we as an industry, deserve everything that can come down the road from the FAA as a result of this.

Lets mind our own house instead of having the FAA do it. Let's be responsible.

(Something I justt remembered): At these tandem instructor seminars that I hold, after we get done with a passenger harness review, I have started offering to sign off on instructors log books, like being signed off by a CFI, that said instructor has reviewed the material and satisfactorily shown competence in proper harness fitting. With this FAA fine coming out, I wonder if that type of Examiner log book entry into an instructors log book might be of merit down the road should the FAA ever inquire about currency. Thoughts? Good idea? Bad idea? Im interested in your feedback.
Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

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Lets mind our own house instead of having the FAA do it. Let's be responsible.



Isn't self-regulation what USPA is supposed to have been doing all these years? Perhaps if USPA enforced the FAR's and BSR's instead of just suggesting it might be a good idea to follow them, the FAA wouldn't have felt it necessary to regulate the sport for us. Hmmm.....

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