0
Skydive2

Tandem Student shooting hand-cam ???

Recommended Posts

Quote

Quote

they aren't having to take the camera out of frame to do a full handle check that includes reserve handle and RSL.



You posted that part t be funny, didn't you?

Matt



No, I am not being funny. There are plenty of handy cam videos out there that lack a handle check. Now we can all play dumb and assume that they are all doing them but they just editing them out, but we both know that it isn't some of the video because some aren't doing them because they are busy filming.

I am not condoning it at all, just point out that some people are getting their priorities wrong on handycam jumps.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote

they aren't having to take the camera out of frame to do a full handle check that includes reserve handle and RSL.



You posted that part t be funny, didn't you?

Matt



No, I am not being funny. There are plenty of handy cam videos out there that lack a handle check. Now we can all play dumb and assume that they are all doing them but they just editing them out, but we both know that it isn't some of the video because some aren't doing them because they are busy filming.

I am not condoning it at all, just point out that some people are getting their priorities wrong on handycam jumps.



I would like to see one video with the T-I wearing a hand cam and doing the Manufacturer required (In the US) handles check. I haven't, one or two may exist, but I have seen THOUSANDS that no check is made and half a dozen "modified" EP's where the T-I never even went for the Reserve handle, good ol' RSL did the heavy work.

Put the cam on the Student (if outside video is too costly), and make the T-I do his primary Job, KEEP THE STUDENT SAFE!

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Riggerrob's tip for handles checks was to roll the hand when doing them so it looks like you are getting a shot of the trailing drogue. In all of the hand-cams I've done you will see a complete handles check because I'd get fired if I didn't! The loss of shot to do a handles check is pretty small compared to the amount of overall footage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A very experienced DZ Manager made these points to me the other day:

1- If you're showing the "manufacturer required" 1986 VHS video, and making your TIs do the "manufacturer required" handle checks and sign their "waiver addendum", is the manufacturer going to send a lawyer to help defend you in an incident/ lawsuit?? Hell No.

2- If you're not doing any of the "manufacturer required" items, is a representative from their company *really* going to show up to your door and "take your rigs away"?? Again: no.

My takeaway was this: watch your asses, use common sense, learn from each other's mistakes, share tips and ideas and make it as safe as you possibly can boys n girls. Cuz when the shit hits the fan, you're on your own!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

A very experienced DZ Manager made these points to me the other day:

1- If you're showing the "manufacturer required" 1986 VHS video, and making your TIs do the "manufacturer required" handle checks and sign their "waiver addendum", is the manufacturer going to send a lawyer to help defend you in an incident/ lawsuit?? Hell No.Depending on the Rig, it has happened, but to not do as Directed screams "negligence" to many lawyers and weakens your defense. The Experienced DZM is not helping himself or his employer.

2- If you're not doing any of the "manufacturer required" items, is a representative from their company *really* going to show up to your door and "take your rigs away"?? Again: no. This has not happened where they took the rigs, but they took the ratings.

My takeaway was this: watch your asses, use common sense, learn from each other's mistakes, share tips and ideas and make it as safe as you possibly can boys n girls. Cuz when the shit hits the fan, you're on your own!

But when the shit hits the Fan and the T-I and DZO are the complacent causes, the Manufacturer is a co-defendant, since they have the deeper pockets, usually.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

But when the shit hits the Fan and the T-I and DZO are the complacent causes, the Manufacturer is a co-defendant, since they have the deeper pockets, usually.

Matt



,...and the manufacturer is going to throw you under the bus regardless whether you were following their rules or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

But when the shit hits the Fan and the T-I and DZO are the complacent causes, the Manufacturer is a co-defendant, since they have the deeper pockets, usually.

Matt



,...and the manufacturer is going to throw you under the bus regardless whether you were following their rules or not.



I haven't seen that, but I guess it could happen. Chances are less though if one follows the rules. That is the point, follow the rules and chances of lawsuits are less likely, but if one happens less likely you would lose.

One of the reasons I let my Tandem I/E expire, no one will follow or enforce the rules.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Any more tandem operators doing this nowadays? Just out of curiosity, id be interested to hear some experiences.

btw. Its funny, since I remember there was another thread about this, but I cant seem to find it no matter what I search. Did someone perhaps feel this is somehow inconvenient topic to discuss?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
steveorino

I started putting the handcam on my students about 6 weeks ago ... Personally I like it. Sometimes I have to direct their hand but that is no different than wearing it myself.



Nice DE-arches of the pax on exit:S
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
.
.
Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
skydiverton2

***I started putting the handcam on my students about 6 weeks ago ... Personally I like it. Sometimes I have to direct their hand but that is no different than wearing it myself.



Nice DE-arches of the pax on exit:S

I have about 2000 tandems. Sometimes it happens. [:/] meh

steveOrino

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
steveorino

I started putting the handcam on my students about 6 weeks ago ... Personally I like it. Sometimes I have to direct their hand but that is no different than wearing it myself.



In the picture handcam2.jpg, I don't think I've ever seen a student so relaxed. Could it be that it gives a student something to focus on rather than being nervous? (Granted, it gives you a bit more of a challenge when their arms are not symmetrical, but I think that in time you will be able to train them to do that better.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cool !

Some other TI´s have also told me positive things about this method via PM´s.

It seems they are unwilling come forward about this in public since in the previous threads some people were so hysterical about this and considered it unsafe and reckless.

Now it seems more and more people are starting do it and are having positive experiences. It actually seems to be safer than TI held handcam? Perhaps soon this situation is going to be reversed? Maby after some time, even the old dinosaurs will admit it is safer if the customer holds the handcam?

EDIT: I first said I couldnt find the earlier thread on this subject, but now I found it: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4395298

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think it is more convenient vs being safe.

Their arm swimming will fuck your exit up more than your one arm being useless.

and the Student can't take photo or video for shit.

I much rather wear a gopro for better shot and quality but I had this one customer who insisted on taking his own shot. Thru his first freefall he didn't do shit, the camera was aiming some random stuff the whole time. I took the money for the video regardless, "Thinking you are a fucking retard, have fun with shaky footage, thanks for 30 dollars."
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
steveorino

Most of the pics do show them smiling and relaxed. I think it helps. On a bout 1/3 you have to hold their arm but that isn't much different than you holding the camera.



We did them this way for two years before we had a change of ownership, and switched back to instructors shooting the handy-cam.

I found that holding the camera seemed to relax them, but I think it distracted them from the skydive a bit.

There were pro's and cons. Students could get a longer shot that I could, and usually were in frame and shot good video. But there were also students that did a shit job, and I couldn't muscle their arms into a better position even if I was the incredible hulk!

Are you having them exit with their arm in this position? I would recommend an exit their arms crossed, thumb in the elbow so they aren't flailing around before you get the drogue out. With a gopro this gives a close up of their face and reaction on exit, not as great, but a good compromise between getting the shot, and making the exit cleaner.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
At my place it is not even an option.
We have outside camera mans that are train to do that, they are professionals. On the ground we have another team that put all the sequences together with music, visual effects and pictures on a dvd that will be ready for the customer with in 30 min... remember that these customers will bring back home these images to there friends and familly! I want to have an eye on that final product since it is my business and my sport.
My TI are tandem instructors not cameraman so they can focus
on what they have to do and here again it is not an option.
Everybody is happy here and the end the product is really
what I want it to be.

Richard

So for this reason no customer is allow to bring a Go Pro, or anything else, in freefall with him.
When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
camamel

I want to have an eye on that final product since it is my business and my sport.
My TI are tandem instructors not cameraman so they can focus on what they have to do and here again it is not an option. Everybody is happy here and the end the product is really what I want it to be.



I respect that and appreciate that. Now change your business model to a smaller drop zone with one 182 and tell me after a season if you are flying outside video, with a dedicated ground production staff.

Here is the funny thing. The students really liked their product. It was their video, they actually participated in making it. The editor hated it, but instead of the instructor choosing when to turn the camera back on for additional commentary they had that input.

Of course we appreciate the difference between outside and inside video, and pictures shot with good glass and gopros. That is because many of us approach this as artists.

We are much more discerning that the average customer.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Let's not start in on this business of slaging handcam video because only outside video is "professional". The reason larger DZs with turbines use outside video is because they have more slots to fill in the aircraft and they can keep more vidiots employed that way. That is why handcam is not an option for you. The reason 182 DZs use handcam is obvious. Every DZ does what is best for them based on available staff and aircraft. Don't be criticizing what others do. We also don't allow customers to shoot their own video. Mostly for the same reason theaters don't allow customers to bring their own popcorn. But we always tell them it's for "safety reasons".

Ken
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0