scooterskydives 0 #1 June 23, 2012 Hey Ladies.... after all my years of jumping I have finally found something that I can say is really challenging being a smaller female tandem master, and that is the length of my arms and shooting handycam. I am using a Chutingstar GoPro glove. I wish there was a go go gadget extension. Someone please invent one... lol So, have any others of you found this harder and what did you do..? If God wanted man to stay on the ground. He would of put roots on them instead of feet. loving life GO-N-UP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
k2skydiver 0 #2 July 3, 2012 Best thing for smaller instructors to do is to put the cam on the student... we have been doing this for some time now and it works awsome.. we do all ground video takeoff ect then right before strapping up we put the cam on the student. This makes it much safer and frees your hands up plus its a better video you just have to watch their hand postition during free fall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 1 #3 July 4, 2012 QuoteBest thing for smaller instructors to do is to put the cam on the student... we have been doing this for some time now and it works awsome.. we do all ground video takeoff ect then right before strapping up we put the cam on the student. This makes it much safer and frees your hands up plus its a better video you just have to watch their hand postition during free fall. How good a "falling-away-from-the-plane" shot (i.e., with the plane in-frame for a couple seconds of fall-away) can you get when the student's camera hand is gripping his/her MLW? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
k2skydiver 0 #4 July 4, 2012 once we are out of the plane i put their hand out just like the TI would have and it gets a great shot... Plus USPA is going to start putting restrictions on TI using handcam so its going to need to go to this for Cesna Dz at some point anyway Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheCaptain 2 #5 July 5, 2012 QuoteBest thing for smaller instructors to do is to put the cam on the student... we have been doing this for some time now and it works awsome.. we do all ground video takeoff ect then right before strapping up we put the cam on the student. This makes it much safer and frees your hands up plus its a better video you just have to watch their hand postition during free fall. IMHO, I think that is a bad idea in general. If you can not shoot good video yourself then you just should not offer it. Every instructor is not meant to do everything. I know some incredibly gifted female instructors and one is 5'8", she shoots the best handicam I have personally seen.Kirk He's dead Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
k2skydiver 0 #6 July 5, 2012 This is true to a point... I have well over 500 hand cams and this is something we tried out once that worked very well we have been doing is for 4 months now with all positives... the students seem to love the idea it makes the skydive much safer for the student and the TI... the video comes out better because the camera is futher away( Wider Point Of View) and the student films what they want under canopy while you worrie with canopy control not a camera. I have seen no downsides to this at this point and as a DZ we have done several hundred to date in this mannor. I would only do this with a gopro setup though and you need to be able to read your students as well if you dont think they can handle it then dont let them wear it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #7 July 5, 2012 Quote... Plus USPA is going to start putting restrictions on TI using handcam ... Kelvin, this is the first I've heard of this, although it is possible that it has been discussed. Tell me more. skymama, you might want to move this thread. We've hijacked Tammy's thread pretty bad haven't we? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
k2skydiver 0 #8 July 6, 2012 skymama, you might want to move this thread. We've hijacked Tammy's thread pretty bad haven't we? Your rite this may need to be moved my initial response was to give her a suggestion to try that works very well for us...... QuoteKelvin, this is the first I've heard of this, although it is possible that it has been discussed. Tell me more... I have heard from several people within USPA that is is being discussed to move away from allowing TI's to do handcam video due to safety issues.. This is actually what has prompted us to try doing what we call Student Cam. once we tried this we asked for feedback and all students love it. It seems to make it feel more like its their video and they have a part in the whole experience not just riding along. The videos come out awsome however you still need to watch their hand postion and do some corrections but it leaves you with the freedom to make corrections during freefall do handle checks ECT without worring about Screwing up the video. Like I said before I have well over 500 handcams so its not like I havent had plenty of experience with the traditional way however I wish I had started doing this sooner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites douwanto 22 #9 July 11, 2012 And just how do you read your student well?? I would never put a handi cam on a student. I want them concentrating on the skydive and their roll in it. You are inviting them to get their hand out at the most in opportune time..... Just my 2 cents Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites k2skydiver 0 #10 July 11, 2012 I always felt the same way but had several times where I really needed all of my limbs to help control the skydive... At that point you have a choice, Forget the video and fix the situation or leave your hand down and hope it works out. I never wanted to give the passanger something to do that may take away from their abality to focus on the skydive or possibaly cause them to do something else wrong. However I tried it a few times to see what the outcome was and it actually worked out great..Im not telling anyone that this is the best solution or to put cams on all the passangers just that this is something that works and the outcome is great it produces a great view, works out awsome under canopy, it frees the instructors hands up, I personally see more positives to this method than negatives. But again thats just me its something to try on a Passanger that is heads up and see what you think you may like it or may not, BUT if an instructor is having a hard time getting their hand in place for a video then this may be a solution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #11 July 11, 2012 QuoteAnd just how do you read your student well?? I would never put a handi cam on a student. I want them concentrating on the skydive and their roll in it. You are inviting them to get their hand out at the most in opportune time..... Just my 2 cents Have them cross their hands, right hand across and on the harness, left thumb stuck in their left elbow. They keep their hands in a safe clear position until drogue is deployed, just like any other tandem. Explain to me why they wouldn't be flying a normal free-fall position and concentrating on that as much as any other tandem student? Instructor handy-cam and outside video is equally distracting. I am all for being purists, no video at all, and no thrill ride tandems. Lets make them all do a 8 hour ground school to weed out the students who want this to be an amusement park ride. How many DZO's do you think would like that idea? The opponents to this idea as the same as the people who bitch about handy-cam video. They discount the danger that outside video adds to the equation. They forget that second priority of video, after the first priority safety, is that the tandem student loves the product. Who cares if you think the video isn't up to your high artistic standards! "I think the free-fall footage sucks" Well the students are happy with it, and they get great canopy footage. I am glad your free-fall footage is the bomb, but you miss half of the students experience! "This is all about $$$$" Oh, excuse me, I didn't realize you shot tandem video for free!"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheCaptain 2 #12 July 11, 2012 Quote... At that point you have a choice, Forget the video and fix the situation or leave your hand down and hope it works out.. Ummmm that is to me very scary, you are having trouble deciding betweeen a safe skydive and dropping the shot or videoing the skydive and hope nothing goes too bad. You are a tandem instructor first and foremost, always drop the shot and skydive saftely.Kirk He's dead Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #13 July 11, 2012 QuoteQuote... At that point you have a choice, Forget the video and fix the situation or leave your hand down and hope it works out.. Ummmm that is to me very scary, you are having trouble deciding betweeen a safe skydive and dropping the shot or videoing the skydive and hope nothing goes too bad. You are a tandem instructor first and foremost, always drop the shot and skydive saftely. Your putting words in his mouth. I don't see where he said that there was trouble deciding, only that there are situations where you can't do both."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheCaptain 2 #14 July 11, 2012 your right so I deleted itKirk He's dead Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjiver 0 #15 August 29, 2012 The super wide angle lenses of the go-pros make hand cam, even done by a 5'4" instructor, quite good. You may have to reach a little and to roll your wrist down a bit, depending upon where your student ends up in the frame. Just keep experimenting. I still think you can do a better job than your student will- trying to film his/her own skydive. Many examples of my video are on Youtube; just type in Skydive Coastal Carolinas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #16 August 29, 2012 QuoteI always felt the same way but had several times where I really needed all of my limbs to help control the skydive... At that point you have a choice, Forget the video and fix the situation or leave your hand down and hope it works out. I never wanted to give the passanger something to do that may take away from their abality to focus on the skydive or possibaly cause them to do something else wrong. However I tried it a few times to see what the outcome was and it actually worked out great..Im not telling anyone that this is the best solution or to put cams on all the passangers just that this is something that works and the outcome is great it produces a great view, works out awsome under canopy, it frees the instructors hands up, I personally see more positives to this method than negatives. But again thats just me its something to try on a Passanger that is heads up and see what you think you may like it or may not, BUT if an instructor is having a hard time getting their hand in place for a video then this may be a solution. Do you charge the passenger for the video…seems like they to all the work? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #17 August 29, 2012 that should be the standard for the handycam video. let them shoot whatever they want to. while we can freely fly our arm, especially on exit and pull time. and that gopro does get in the way during EP. handycam on ti should be outlawed. and bring back the era of real aerial photographer.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #18 August 29, 2012 Quote Do you charge the passenger for the video…seems like they to all the work? Sparky Why wouldn't you? I don't offer a rebate for my students that arched extra well. They get an edited product that they couldn't get otherwise, that is where the value comes from."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Southern_Man 0 #19 August 29, 2012 QuoteQuote Do you charge the passenger for the video…seems like they to all the work? Sparky They get an edited product that they couldn't get otherwise, that is where the value comes from. Places I've been that had video editors (i.e. the videographer was not editing their own footage) the value of that service seems to be ~$18."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #20 August 29, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote Do you charge the passenger for the video…seems like they to all the work? Sparky They get an edited product that they couldn't get otherwise, that is where the value comes from. Places I've been that had video editors (i.e. the videographer was not editing their own footage) the value of that service seems to be ~$18. I think you are missing my point. The cost to produce does not equal the price point of a service or product. Unless your video editors can get the student up in the air, film their jump, and produce the DVD for 18 dollars you are comparing apples to oranges. Ever seen a tandem student make a tandem skydive and end up with a edited DVD of their jump with no plane, no dropzone, no dzo, no tandem instructor, and no tandem equipment."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PommyG 0 #21 December 11, 2012 This may be a bit late but for what it's worth I am only 5' 6" & have shortish arms. I have done over 900 hand cams starting before we had the GoPro. The GoPro has made things better with its very wide lens. I have also found that moving my arm out to the left & shooting from the side more worke quite well. But as other posters have said try a few & move your arm to different positions & see what works best for you. For the record here in Australia you need a C licence (min of 100 jumps) to where a camera. Tandem "passengers" are students & therefore cannot wear a camera here in Australia. Tandem masters also need a minimum of 100 tandems to do hand cam. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crashtested 0 #22 January 2, 2013 I have around 1800 tandem handcams as a heads up to my experiance on this. I'm 6ft 220lbs If you can't fly without one arm filming then you should not be doing tandems, let alone handcam tandems. how anyone can't fly there body and a student who lets face it is taking 70% of your air, in any position / orientation needs to look at there flying ability / exit position. The super wide lens is a godsend for those tm's with smallish arms, 5ft 6inch people, one of out tm's is know is t rex, due to his minute arms, he gets aweome footage using a cx110 with a .2 ninja lens, and with steady shot on. We also dual this up with go pro's or the like for pictures... the image res si great.. as awesome a shot as most outside footage. I see the go around with the student filming, but i would much prefer to have there hands in there harness. and be in a place where they are thinking about body position, rather then trying to get an awesome shot, i think overall the quality is comprimised, however that might be reflected in the price you charge.?? (i have no idea) And i still have not heard of a incident involving a TM wearing a well constructed hand cam... my set up is not much bigger than a large altimeter, with no snags, i would not do it otherwise... and the day i compromise my life for "the shot" goes into the category of the day i have a ADD fire... New job needed! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obelixtim 141 #23 January 5, 2013 Quote And just how do you read your student well?? I would never put a handi cam on a student. I want them concentrating on the skydive and their roll in it. You are inviting them to get their hand out at the most in opportune time..... Just my 2 cents Apparently a skydive for its own sake just ain't good enough anymore. For some reason I never thought it was about the TM OR his rider spending 5 minutes of his lfe focussing on becoming the next Spielberg. "If ya can't handle it, don't use it...ya know what I mean".......( apologies to the Pecos Parachute Centre mama)My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #24 January 5, 2013 Quote Quote And just how do you read your student well?? I would never put a handi cam on a student. I want them concentrating on the skydive and their roll in it. You are inviting them to get their hand out at the most in opportune time..... Just my 2 cents Apparently a skydive for its own sake just ain't good enough anymore. For some reason I never thought it was about the TM OR his rider spending 5 minutes of his lfe focussing on becoming the next Spielberg. "If ya can't handle it, don't use it...ya know what I mean".......( apologies to the Pecos Parachute Centre mama) It's not. It's all about the $$$...about who get the money...the outside video guy or the TI? I noticed one TI busting on the outside video guys crying because they losing their money....I wonder how many TIs handcam for free? I noticed one TI busting on those who do not like the quality of the handcam jumps. Safety is one thing, granted...jittery, bouncing all over the place, out-of-focus shots of everything BUT the subject is the point....all poor quality shooting. Two things handcam's only saving grace - the under-canopy capture - the available slot on the planeMy reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpwally 0 #25 February 7, 2013 "haven't heard of an incident " of course not,, there is still time and anything you can think of thats wild has done someone in,,,,,,at some point...Loose hoodies and hand cams are next in line, just wait. To me its like dragging a fish line with hooks over a barbed wire fence.... lame and a shame... smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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douwanto 22 #9 July 11, 2012 And just how do you read your student well?? I would never put a handi cam on a student. I want them concentrating on the skydive and their roll in it. You are inviting them to get their hand out at the most in opportune time..... Just my 2 cents Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
k2skydiver 0 #10 July 11, 2012 I always felt the same way but had several times where I really needed all of my limbs to help control the skydive... At that point you have a choice, Forget the video and fix the situation or leave your hand down and hope it works out. I never wanted to give the passanger something to do that may take away from their abality to focus on the skydive or possibaly cause them to do something else wrong. However I tried it a few times to see what the outcome was and it actually worked out great..Im not telling anyone that this is the best solution or to put cams on all the passangers just that this is something that works and the outcome is great it produces a great view, works out awsome under canopy, it frees the instructors hands up, I personally see more positives to this method than negatives. But again thats just me its something to try on a Passanger that is heads up and see what you think you may like it or may not, BUT if an instructor is having a hard time getting their hand in place for a video then this may be a solution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #11 July 11, 2012 QuoteAnd just how do you read your student well?? I would never put a handi cam on a student. I want them concentrating on the skydive and their roll in it. You are inviting them to get their hand out at the most in opportune time..... Just my 2 cents Have them cross their hands, right hand across and on the harness, left thumb stuck in their left elbow. They keep their hands in a safe clear position until drogue is deployed, just like any other tandem. Explain to me why they wouldn't be flying a normal free-fall position and concentrating on that as much as any other tandem student? Instructor handy-cam and outside video is equally distracting. I am all for being purists, no video at all, and no thrill ride tandems. Lets make them all do a 8 hour ground school to weed out the students who want this to be an amusement park ride. How many DZO's do you think would like that idea? The opponents to this idea as the same as the people who bitch about handy-cam video. They discount the danger that outside video adds to the equation. They forget that second priority of video, after the first priority safety, is that the tandem student loves the product. Who cares if you think the video isn't up to your high artistic standards! "I think the free-fall footage sucks" Well the students are happy with it, and they get great canopy footage. I am glad your free-fall footage is the bomb, but you miss half of the students experience! "This is all about $$$$" Oh, excuse me, I didn't realize you shot tandem video for free!"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheCaptain 2 #12 July 11, 2012 Quote... At that point you have a choice, Forget the video and fix the situation or leave your hand down and hope it works out.. Ummmm that is to me very scary, you are having trouble deciding betweeen a safe skydive and dropping the shot or videoing the skydive and hope nothing goes too bad. You are a tandem instructor first and foremost, always drop the shot and skydive saftely.Kirk He's dead Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #13 July 11, 2012 QuoteQuote... At that point you have a choice, Forget the video and fix the situation or leave your hand down and hope it works out.. Ummmm that is to me very scary, you are having trouble deciding betweeen a safe skydive and dropping the shot or videoing the skydive and hope nothing goes too bad. You are a tandem instructor first and foremost, always drop the shot and skydive saftely. Your putting words in his mouth. I don't see where he said that there was trouble deciding, only that there are situations where you can't do both."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheCaptain 2 #14 July 11, 2012 your right so I deleted itKirk He's dead Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjiver 0 #15 August 29, 2012 The super wide angle lenses of the go-pros make hand cam, even done by a 5'4" instructor, quite good. You may have to reach a little and to roll your wrist down a bit, depending upon where your student ends up in the frame. Just keep experimenting. I still think you can do a better job than your student will- trying to film his/her own skydive. Many examples of my video are on Youtube; just type in Skydive Coastal Carolinas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #16 August 29, 2012 QuoteI always felt the same way but had several times where I really needed all of my limbs to help control the skydive... At that point you have a choice, Forget the video and fix the situation or leave your hand down and hope it works out. I never wanted to give the passanger something to do that may take away from their abality to focus on the skydive or possibaly cause them to do something else wrong. However I tried it a few times to see what the outcome was and it actually worked out great..Im not telling anyone that this is the best solution or to put cams on all the passangers just that this is something that works and the outcome is great it produces a great view, works out awsome under canopy, it frees the instructors hands up, I personally see more positives to this method than negatives. But again thats just me its something to try on a Passanger that is heads up and see what you think you may like it or may not, BUT if an instructor is having a hard time getting their hand in place for a video then this may be a solution. Do you charge the passenger for the video…seems like they to all the work? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #17 August 29, 2012 that should be the standard for the handycam video. let them shoot whatever they want to. while we can freely fly our arm, especially on exit and pull time. and that gopro does get in the way during EP. handycam on ti should be outlawed. and bring back the era of real aerial photographer.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #18 August 29, 2012 Quote Do you charge the passenger for the video…seems like they to all the work? Sparky Why wouldn't you? I don't offer a rebate for my students that arched extra well. They get an edited product that they couldn't get otherwise, that is where the value comes from."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #19 August 29, 2012 QuoteQuote Do you charge the passenger for the video…seems like they to all the work? Sparky They get an edited product that they couldn't get otherwise, that is where the value comes from. Places I've been that had video editors (i.e. the videographer was not editing their own footage) the value of that service seems to be ~$18."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #20 August 29, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote Do you charge the passenger for the video…seems like they to all the work? Sparky They get an edited product that they couldn't get otherwise, that is where the value comes from. Places I've been that had video editors (i.e. the videographer was not editing their own footage) the value of that service seems to be ~$18. I think you are missing my point. The cost to produce does not equal the price point of a service or product. Unless your video editors can get the student up in the air, film their jump, and produce the DVD for 18 dollars you are comparing apples to oranges. Ever seen a tandem student make a tandem skydive and end up with a edited DVD of their jump with no plane, no dropzone, no dzo, no tandem instructor, and no tandem equipment."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PommyG 0 #21 December 11, 2012 This may be a bit late but for what it's worth I am only 5' 6" & have shortish arms. I have done over 900 hand cams starting before we had the GoPro. The GoPro has made things better with its very wide lens. I have also found that moving my arm out to the left & shooting from the side more worke quite well. But as other posters have said try a few & move your arm to different positions & see what works best for you. For the record here in Australia you need a C licence (min of 100 jumps) to where a camera. Tandem "passengers" are students & therefore cannot wear a camera here in Australia. Tandem masters also need a minimum of 100 tandems to do hand cam. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #22 January 2, 2013 I have around 1800 tandem handcams as a heads up to my experiance on this. I'm 6ft 220lbs If you can't fly without one arm filming then you should not be doing tandems, let alone handcam tandems. how anyone can't fly there body and a student who lets face it is taking 70% of your air, in any position / orientation needs to look at there flying ability / exit position. The super wide lens is a godsend for those tm's with smallish arms, 5ft 6inch people, one of out tm's is know is t rex, due to his minute arms, he gets aweome footage using a cx110 with a .2 ninja lens, and with steady shot on. We also dual this up with go pro's or the like for pictures... the image res si great.. as awesome a shot as most outside footage. I see the go around with the student filming, but i would much prefer to have there hands in there harness. and be in a place where they are thinking about body position, rather then trying to get an awesome shot, i think overall the quality is comprimised, however that might be reflected in the price you charge.?? (i have no idea) And i still have not heard of a incident involving a TM wearing a well constructed hand cam... my set up is not much bigger than a large altimeter, with no snags, i would not do it otherwise... and the day i compromise my life for "the shot" goes into the category of the day i have a ADD fire... New job needed! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 141 #23 January 5, 2013 Quote And just how do you read your student well?? I would never put a handi cam on a student. I want them concentrating on the skydive and their roll in it. You are inviting them to get their hand out at the most in opportune time..... Just my 2 cents Apparently a skydive for its own sake just ain't good enough anymore. For some reason I never thought it was about the TM OR his rider spending 5 minutes of his lfe focussing on becoming the next Spielberg. "If ya can't handle it, don't use it...ya know what I mean".......( apologies to the Pecos Parachute Centre mama)My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #24 January 5, 2013 Quote Quote And just how do you read your student well?? I would never put a handi cam on a student. I want them concentrating on the skydive and their roll in it. You are inviting them to get their hand out at the most in opportune time..... Just my 2 cents Apparently a skydive for its own sake just ain't good enough anymore. For some reason I never thought it was about the TM OR his rider spending 5 minutes of his lfe focussing on becoming the next Spielberg. "If ya can't handle it, don't use it...ya know what I mean".......( apologies to the Pecos Parachute Centre mama) It's not. It's all about the $$$...about who get the money...the outside video guy or the TI? I noticed one TI busting on the outside video guys crying because they losing their money....I wonder how many TIs handcam for free? I noticed one TI busting on those who do not like the quality of the handcam jumps. Safety is one thing, granted...jittery, bouncing all over the place, out-of-focus shots of everything BUT the subject is the point....all poor quality shooting. Two things handcam's only saving grace - the under-canopy capture - the available slot on the planeMy reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #25 February 7, 2013 "haven't heard of an incident " of course not,, there is still time and anything you can think of thats wild has done someone in,,,,,,at some point...Loose hoodies and hand cams are next in line, just wait. To me its like dragging a fish line with hooks over a barbed wire fence.... lame and a shame... smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
