jshiloh 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteI am truly amazed that people pull off stunts like these in suehappy america....
Note to all in Cali - waivers won't cover "gross negligence," which is "an extreme departure from the ordinary standard of conduct." While I'm no tandem master, I think that a woman falling ass first out of a harness ON EXIT shows a pretty extreme departure. If something worse had happened, that video...
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I beg to differ, every waiver I have ever signed at my home DZ or while traveling has the "gross negligence" clause in it. Search google for "tandem waiver" just to see a few generic ones and you'll find the clause in there.
I've even signed a waiver that stated I would not sue the DZ/DZO etc. in the event of "Extreme Gross Negligence" which I found somewhat amusing.
I am IN NO WAY defending ANY of what is on the video. Nor am I saying that the waiver would necessarily hold up in court. Any law student could punch holes in nearly all our waivers if they were paid well enough to do so. The U.S. is far too eager to sue, that's undeniable. Sometimes, it's justified, other times it isn't.
Had this tandem ended up turning into a fatality (which we all agree came within a hair's breadth of doing so) then it would have been a clear case of "Gross Negligence" - at least from my non-legalese point of view.
BTW - Laverne looks a bit like a dude.
You can put anything you want in a waiver or contract. That doesn't make it enforceable in a court of law. California (and most other states) has firmly established that you CANNOT waive gross negligence, no matter how hard anyone tries, because doing so violates public policy. If a plaintiff can prove gross negligence (as opposed to regular negligence) they will win in court, even if they signed a waiver expressly mentioning gross negligence. To make matters worse, including an attempt to waive gross negligence, intentional acts, etc can sometimes actually backfire. A court may rule that such a waiver is entirely void as "over reaching" or "unconcionable."
I am a new DZO, but have some experience as an AFFI and TI. If they say "no", I am cool with it. They paid, TI gets paid and I don't have to pay for a pack job. Life is about making decisions. If you pay and change your mind at my DZ, we're jiggy with the decision.
Charlie Gittins
MEI-I, CFI-I
Sigma TI; AFF-I
FAA Senior Rigger
MEI-I, CFI-I
Sigma TI; AFF-I
FAA Senior Rigger
It's all three back straps.
I can't speak to anything you used in the past.
If you had succesful jumps with overweight people without the use of a back strap, I don't see why it has been implemented, since.
I can't speak to anything you used in the past.
If you had succesful jumps with overweight people without the use of a back strap, I don't see why it has been implemented, since.
ShcShc11 0
honestly who the hell posted it on youtube ![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
..
predictably gone viral.
Cheers
Shc
jbnote 0
lawrocket and jshiloh,
Thanks for the tips (truly, I am not being sarcastic).
I always figured the gross/extreme gross negligence clauses were a BS smokescreen. I guess those DZs where I've signed them (won't name names) just have them there as perhaps a first line of defense if an ill-informed jumper tries to sue. For example:
Student: I'm injured because your TI did X,Y,Z.
DZO: Sorry, but you signed the "Gross Negligence" clause, and our waiver is bullet-proof.
Student: Oh shit, ok, I shouldn't have done that. He's right, this waiver looks totally legit. Live and learn I guess.
I'm glad California seems to have started or added momentum to the trend of ditching the clause and making a more common-sense approach to the waivers and their legal possibilities. Truthfully, I'm surprised this is a state-to-state issue, but I know next to nothing about legal issues in skydiving.
Thanks to you guys for helping us learn more.
That said, I'm sure waiver/legal issues probably belong in a different forum . . . so we should switch to yelling about the TI so these posts don't get moved. 
QuoteI am a new DZO, but have some experience as an AFFI and TI. If they say "no", I am cool with it. They paid, TI gets paid and I don't have to pay for a pack job. Life is about making decisions. If you pay and change your mind at my DZ, we're jiggy with the decision.
I know we have gone down the "cocky TI" road, but a lot of similar behavior of people pushing out unwilling students at other places comes from the DZO not wanting to do two passes because it costs money and puts hours on the plane. Not condoning this guys behavior by any means.
LyraM45 0
QuoteQuoteI am a new DZO, but have some experience as an AFFI and TI. If they say "no", I am cool with it. They paid, TI gets paid and I don't have to pay for a pack job. Life is about making decisions. If you pay and change your mind at my DZ, we're jiggy with the decision.
I know we have gone down the "cocky TI" road, but a lot of similar behavior of people pushing out unwilling students at other places comes from the DZO not wanting to do two passes because it costs money and puts hours on the plane. Not condoning this guys behavior by any means.
Yep
I had a bad experience one time at this particular dz where I saw traffic passing underneath us, I signaled and pointed it out to everybody behind me, and what did I get? Everybody yelling at me to go. That was probably my last jump at this place if I remember correctly. And it's not just Lodi.... other places pull the same crap and it's one of my pet peeves, especially since I work in air traffic control. I know how busy the skies are in Nor Cal.Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)
BillyVance - make yourself useful and read her lips and tell us what she's saying.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Greig474 0
uh oh, first photo that comes up now when you type "skydive" on google, i didn't think this would affect tandem numbers that badly at first, now i'm not so sure
Quoteuh oh, first photo that comes up now when you type "skydive" on google, i didn't think this would affect tandem numbers that badly at first, now i'm not so sure
Yeh, this one has legs unlike any bad incident we have seen in a long while. The damage control on this will be tough. Seeing as we have hit quite a few of the bases on this one, we still havent figured out "how the hell did this leak?" Especially if it happened a year ago.
/and it was edited...
dorbie 0
It made the local news here (Bay Area), it wasn't just in the news broadcast though. It was used as the teaser broadcast throughout the evening to get people to tune in and watch later, including the shot of the PAX ass in the breeze clinging for life.
wetrock 0
Its got legs all rite about 600,000 views from various you tube channels alone in five days and that's before main stream media reports on the video.
nigel99 402
Quoteuh oh, first photo that comes up now when you type "skydive" on google, i didn't think this would affect tandem numbers that badly at first, now i'm not so sure
No real damage done to the sport. I've seen a number of posts saying this has motivated them to book their tandem. People are funny and will figure that falling out of their harness is less of a risk. I mean an old lady managed to hang on so how hard can it be? (I'm giving a whuffo viewpoint, not mine)
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.
The video made the cover page on Yahoo.com this morning when I looked...does "viral" mean any thing?
So, you bring your beer?
Its 5 o'clock somewhere
POPS #9344
Its 5 o'clock somewhere
POPS #9344
sacex250 0
QuoteQuoteuh oh, first photo that comes up now when you type "skydive" on google, i didn't think this would affect tandem numbers that badly at first, now i'm not so sure
No real damage done to the sport. I've seen a number of posts saying this has motivated them to book their tandem. People are funny and will figure that falling out of their harness is less of a risk. I mean an old lady managed to hang on so how hard can it be? (I'm giving a whuffo viewpoint, not mine)
I'll bet that in the mainstream media an elderly woman comes off as a fool, and the TI comes off as a hero. After all, he did save her life!
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.
At the very least it takes the maturity to realize that a jump with a student/tandem is not about “me, me”. It is not something that can be taught or coached. Some may never reach the point where they should have responsibility for someone else’s life.
Sparky
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