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BMFin

Why is tandem customer called a student?

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When you sit in the passenger seat of a roller coaster, Ferris wheel, or for that matter, in the cabin of an airplane, you are by definition, a "passenger". Your actions have no influence on the outcome of the ride, and you certainly cannot kill or injure the ride operator or pilot. On a tandem jump the situation is entirely different. You're in the front seat. You get the air first. How you act can drastically influence the outcome, as many tandem instructors have learned the hard way. Because you have input, you are a student, some might say, even a co-pilot.

How much training you get is up the tandem instructor, and it is certainly a lot less than is necessary for a SL or AFF jump. However, some training is essential for a safe tandem jump, and that makes you a student. If you wish, a tandem jump is the "environmental famiiiarization" section of your initial training to become a skydiver. It is also the only "hands-on" instruction you will ever get in canopy control. Whether you want to make a second jump depends a lot on the attitude of your instructor and the "culture of the drop zone". I do think it is a shame that so many future skydivers a sacrificed to the "tandem mill" culture.

A Little History: (I've told these stories before, but they bear repeating.)

I developed tandem in answer to a question I asked myself over 40 years ago: "You don't learn to drive or fly by yourself, you go with an instructor. Why can't we learn parachuting to same way?" I was just simply tired of kicking students out of an airplane static line and wondering what they would do in case of an emergency. There just had to be a better way. And it looks like there was. In 2010 there were NO tandem fatalities anywhere in the world. No other aviation sport has ever had a year like that.

My first "tandem" jump was in 1972, under a 44 foot cargo chute with another experienced jumper. We both wore piggybacks, faced each other, and tied the risers of the big round to our chest straps and hopped out. Another jumper, still in the airplane, held onto the large rucksack containing the cargo chute, until we fell away and pulled it out... Sort of like a static line without the "line". (Yes, we both had big hook knives.) It worked fine the first time, but on a second attempt, the guy in the airplane who was supposed to hold onto the rucksack, didn't, and we found ourselves in free fall right next to the still bagged canopy. We looked at each other, yelled 'Holy Shit", and put our hook knives to good use, cutting through both our chest straps in the process. Luckily, our Security Piggybacks had belly bands, so we didn't fall out of our harnesses on opening. Needless to say, this put and end to my tandem experiments for quite a while.

My second foray into tandem jumping was in 1977, when Mike Barber (one of Relative Workshop's original employees) and I modified my Wonder Hog (with a ParaPlane Cloud in it) with "D" rings and built a harness for "Sky Kirk", an 11 year old wheelchair bound boy, and put him in an 11-way for his birthday, with Mike doing the honors. Bob Favreau also took his 12 year old son Robbie on the same load.

As you know, tandem got formally underway 6 years later when Ted Strong and I took our secretaries on tandem jumps in the summer of 1983.

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What would the paying tandem student/passenger be considered?

Are they a parachutist or a passenger...not talking about the airplane ride.


I thought the question was "student" or "passenger".

I already quoted the FAA regulation that defines that person as a "passenger parachutist".

I'm still waiting for the explanation of why it would matter to the FAA, and how it threatens the sport, if that person is called a "passenger."

Does it make a difference to the FAA whether a "student" or a "passenger" flies an airplane? No, any pilot can take a passenger up and let them fly the plane. However, a passenger doesn't become a "student" unless there's a qualified instructor present that makes the logging of flight time legal.
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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However, a passenger doesn't become a "student" unless there's a qualified instructor present that makes the logging of flight time legal.



I'm a flight student, just because the guy sitting in the seat next to me isn't a CFI, doesn't mean I'm not a flight student.;)

Also, using your example, the TI takes the role of a 'qualified instructor', so that would mean they are 'students'.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
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However, a passenger doesn't become a "student" unless there's a qualified instructor present that makes the logging of flight time legal.



I'm a flight student, just because the guy sitting in the seat next to me isn't a CFI, doesn't mean I'm not a flight student.;)

Also, using your example, the TI takes the role of a 'qualified instructor', so that would mean they are 'students'.


Well, technically, the FAA doesn't consider you a student pilot unless you have a student pilot/medical certificate, an instructor's endorsement for solo flight, and are operating an aircraft in solo flight. Believe it or not in any other situation you're still just a passenger who's being allowed to log flight time towards a certificate or rating provided there's a CFI giving that instruction who's signing off your logbook. If you just go flying with another pilot then you're a passenger.

Which begs the question, what do you call a C-License holder who's riding along with a Tandem Instructor in Training? Surely, he's not a student nor an instructor. He must be a passenger then.
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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However, a passenger doesn't become a "student" unless there's a qualified instructor present that makes the logging of flight time legal.



I'm a flight student, just because the guy sitting in the seat next to me isn't a CFI, doesn't mean I'm not a flight student.;)

Also, using your example, the TI takes the role of a 'qualified instructor', so that would mean they are 'students'.


Well, technically, the FAA doesn't consider you a student pilot until you have a student pilot/medical certificate, an instructor's endorsement for solo flight, and are operating an aircraft in solo flight. Believe it or not, until then, you're still just a passenger who's being allowed to log flight time towards a certificate or rating provided there's a CFI giving that instruction who's signing off your logbook. If you just go flying with another pilot then you're a passenger.


So, just because I don't have a piece of paper, I'm incapable of being a student? Interesting. The student pilot certificate isn't needed until you solo anyways, as a matter of fact, it's the only reason it took me extra time before I did solo (and I just got more dual time while I waited.)

By your statement, I'm a passenger whether I'm sitting in the left seat manipulating the controls with a pilot next to me or sitting in seat 37A on a 777 sucking down rum and cokes and eating peanuts.

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Which begs the question, what do you call a C-License holder who's riding along with a Tandem Instructor in Training? Surely, he's not a student nor an instructor. He must be a passenger then.



Well, then it would be two pilots flying an airplane, wouldn't it?:P
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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So, just because I don't have a piece of paper, I'm incapable of being a student? Interesting. The student pilot certificate isn't needed until you solo anyways, as a matter of fact, it's the only reason it took me extra time before I did solo (and I just got more dual time while I waited.)

By your statement, I'm a passenger whether I'm sitting in the left seat manipulating the controls with a pilot next to me or sitting in seat 37A on a 777 sucking down rum and cokes and eating peanuts.


Exactly!

How about this? You're a licensed private pilot with an ASEL rating and you're receiving flight instruction from a CFI-ME for your AMEL rating, does the FAA consider you a pilot or a passenger?
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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So, just because I don't have a piece of paper, I'm incapable of being a student? Interesting. The student pilot certificate isn't needed until you solo anyways, as a matter of fact, it's the only reason it took me extra time before I did solo (and I just got more dual time while I waited.)

By your statement, I'm a passenger whether I'm sitting in the left seat manipulating the controls with a pilot next to me or sitting in seat 37A on a 777 sucking down rum and cokes and eating peanuts.


Exactly!

How about this? You're a licensed private pilot with an ASEL rating and you're receiving flight instruction from a CFI-ME for your AMEL rating, does the FAA consider you a pilot or a passenger?


I'm gonna go out here and say you're still a pilot just not the PIC (because you don't have that category rating).

If I want to go get a my chest or lap rating, guess what? I'm still a certificated rigger, just not on that type, so I have to be taught, then tested to add it on.. :P
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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How about this? You're a licensed private pilot with an ASEL rating and you're receiving flight instruction from a CFI-ME for your AMEL rating, does the FAA consider you a pilot or a passenger?



I'm gonna go out here and say you're still a pilot just not not the PIC, maybe student pilot.



You're a passenger when you're flying with an instructor. Once the instructor signs you off for solo flight, and you're acting as pilot-in-command, then you're a student pilot even though you already have a pilot certificate.
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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How about this? You're a licensed private pilot with an ASEL rating and you're receiving flight instruction from a CFI-ME for your AMEL rating, does the FAA consider you a pilot or a passenger?



I'm gonna go out here and say you're still a pilot just not the PIC (because you don't have that category rating).

If I want to go get a my chest or lap rating, guess what? I'm still a certificated rigger, just not on that type, so I have to be taught, then tested to add it on.. :P


Okay, you're a private pilot with an ASEL and you're receiving instruction from a CFI-I for an instrument rating in a single-engine airplane, can you log pilot-in-command time?
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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Okay, you're a private pilot with an ASEL and you're receiving instruction from a CFI-I for an instrument rating in a single-engine airplane, can you log pilot-in-command time?



How does that have ANYTHING to do with this? You're still logging flight time, you're still a pilot even if under the training of a CFII,

Furthermore,

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61.51 (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person— (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;



So, you can log the time as PIC if you're the sole manipulator of the controls (say for take off and to the training area)... at least that's how I understand it.


But guess what? You're STILL a student, not just a passenger. :P
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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Okay, you're a private pilot with an ASEL and you're receiving instruction from a CFI-I for an instrument rating in a single-engine airplane, can you log pilot-in-command time?



How does that have ANYTHING to do with this? You're still logging flight time, you're still a pilot even if under the training of a CFII,

Furthermore,

Quote

61.51 (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person— (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;



So, you can log the time as PIC if you're the sole manipulator of the controls (say for take off and to the training area)... at least that's how I understand it.


But guess what? You're STILL a student, not just a passenger. :P

Right, you're a pilot as long as you're flying an airplane you're rated for. If you're not rated in the airplane then you're a passenger. If you're a properly endorsed student pilot flying in solo flight then you're a student pilot, but a student pilot cannot log PIC time unless he's the only occupant of the aircraft.
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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When you sit in the passenger seat of a roller coaster, Ferris wheel, or for that matter, in the cabin of an airplane, you are by definition, a "passenger". Your actions have no influence on the outcome of the ride, and you certainly cannot kill or injure the ride operator or pilot. On a tandem jump the situation is entirely different. You're in the front seat. You get the air first. How you act can drastically influence the outcome, as many tandem instructors have learned the hard way. Because you have input, you are a student, some might say, even a co-pilot.



First of all thanks for the answers. However Im not quite convinced on this logic makes sense. Having some control over the vehicle as a passanger doesnt make you a student. On top of my hat I can think of many vehicles or activities, where the passanger has some degree of control and in no other cases this makes the passanger a "student" (motorcycle, tandem paraglider, tandem bicycle) Co-pilot maby, but not a student.


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How much training you get is up the tandem instructor, and it is certainly a lot less than is necessary for a SL or AFF jump. However, some training is essential for a safe tandem jump, and that makes you a student.



I agree that this criteria is determimative on classifying a student. Sure you get some training, but what is the objective of the training ? Answer: the objective of the training is to be able to make a safe tandem skydive. Therefore the student must graduate from the training before his jump. Therefore he/she would only be on student status during the ground training.

We dont cosider someone who makes one tandem jump as as student who quit his training. We consider him/her as a customer who made a tandem and went home.

If there was a training program that would continue after you make your first tandem jump, then I would understand the term student. (IAF program)






A Little History: (I've told these stories before, but they bear repeating.)


Quote


My first "tandem" jump was in 1972, under a 44 foot cargo chute with another experienced jumper. We both wore piggybacks, faced each other, and tied the risers of the big round to our chest straps and hopped out. Another jumper, still in the airplane, held onto the large rucksack containing the cargo chute, until we fell away and pulled it out... Sort of like a static line without the "line". (Yes, we both had big hook knives.) It worked fine the first time, but on a second attempt, the guy in the airplane who was supposed to hold onto the rucksack, didn't, and we found ourselves in free fall right next to the still bagged canopy. We looked at each other, yelled 'Holy Shit", and put our hook knives to good use, cutting through both our chest straps in the process. Luckily, our Security Piggybacks had belly bands, so we didn't fall out of our harnesses on opening. Needless to say, this put and end to my tandem experiments for quite a while.

My second foray into tandem jumping was in 1977, when Mike Barber (one of Relative Workshop's original employees) and I modified my Wonder Hog (with a ParaPlane Cloud in it) with "D" rings and built a harness for "Sky Kirk", an 11 year old wheelchair bound boy, and put him in an 11-way for his birthday, with Mike doing the honors. Bob Favreau also took his 12 year old son Robbie on the same load.

As you know, tandem got formally underway 6 years later when Ted Strong and I took our secretaries on tandem jumps in the summer of 1983.



Great story, Thanks. BTW. Do you know who made the first tandem jumps, if not you ?

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Therefore the student must graduate from the training before his jump.



That is not true, a good deal of training should be taking place under canopy and if you bounce or hook in and die, you failed your course.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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That is not true, a good deal of training should be taking place under canopy and if you bounce or hook in and die, you failed your course.



Ok, point taken.

May I ask you. Would you consider someone who makes one tandem jump as a student who quit his career as a student? (a dropout?)

Or would you consider the student graduated once he/she has landed safely ? And if so, what do you call a tandem passanger who wants to make a second tandem? Is he then a "graduated tandem passanger" or still a student?

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A very important consideration that is being fought out right now is that a passenger would be considered merely a rider as in an amusement park ride. The tax ramifications of this are very big for DZs in states like Florida where there is a "head tax" on amusement park rides. We are talking millions of dollars in retro-active taxes being called for if the tandem student weren't exactly that, a student.

JR

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Yes. Actually, earlier I was under the impression that the reason why the Finnish DZ´s use the word "student" is due to taxational reasons. All DZ´s in Finland have for the last 50 years been clubs and not businesses.

I never gave this much thought, but now that we also operate the first fully commercial DZ in Finland, I begun to think why do we still insist calling the passangers students? After all this commercial DZ doesnt even offer any training program for students. Business is merely tandems and some licenced skydivers to fill the loads. I soon remembered however, that the term actually comes from the US.

As far as Im concerned people are welcome to call these passangers what they want. It doesnt really make any difference to me. Im merely interested on learning the reasons behind it.

It seems to me, there is a lot of this kind of camouflaging in the aviation industry. Some operators fly customers with museum airplanes. Obviously this wouldnt meet the requirements of modern airtraffic regulations. Therefore the operator is operating under A voluntary association and the customers will join this association before boarding the plane. Therefore some could try to argue, they are only flying their own members and not customers.

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They all are students no matter the progression used, until they get an A license here in the states. That even means, if they make one, wait 5 yrs. and do jump two and wait 5 more years, they are a student skydiver who goes un-current, yes they may even sit in the local bar and talk shit to you about how they are a skydiving student even though it's been 4.5 years from the last jump, they are not a dropout until they fail to return at what ever time to continue their training, in their mind, however in real world dz's we all know they dropped out of the program, I would call them a former student. I personally might forget about this said student during the 5 yrs they are absent, but once they return to the dz they are still a student until an A license.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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When you sit in the passenger seat of a roller coaster, Ferris wheel, or for that matter, in the cabin of an airplane, you are by definition, a "passenger". Your actions have no influence on the outcome of the ride, and you certainly cannot kill or injure the ride operator or pilot. On a tandem jump the situation is entirely different. You're in the front seat. You get the air first. How you act can drastically influence the outcome, as many tandem instructors have learned the hard way. Because you have input, you are a student, some might say, even a co-pilot.
.



You do have a very large influence on the back of a motorcycle as a pillion passenger.
Or should they now be referred to as Motorcycle students?
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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What is funny is how many of you late bloomers want to nitpick shit and start a fight with the one of the men who started it all. He comes on here and explains his thinking and idea from back in the day and why they choose to call the person on the front a student and not a pax or rider, and it's not good enough of an answer for you.

Instead of acting like an ass to the man, you should be thankful he took the time to log in here and post and if you have done a tdm or had a friend or family member make a tdm jump, again you should thanking Mr. Booth & Ted Strong for their taking of the risk to test and build the systems and not starting a pissing contest over choosing to call someone a student and not a pax.

The men had every good reason for using that word, so move along already!
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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